curi blog comments http://curi.us/comments/recent Explanations for the curious en-us Anonymous Freeze Discussion Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:26:11 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15275 http://curi.us/comments/show/15275 Anonymous Dear Lurkers
- Breaking phobias
- Getting over irrationalities (and expecting to be able to!)
- Becoming competent at something quickly
- Not fearing making mistakes
- Enjoying finding mistakes]]>
Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:25:23 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15274 http://curi.us/comments/show/15274
Currently Reading Freeze Freeze Discussion Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:18:25 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15273 http://curi.us/comments/show/15273 curi The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities Sun, 26 Jan 2020 14:00:09 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15272 http://curi.us/comments/show/15272 Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
>> On the subject of spanking...Good heavens, I have friends who do occasionally, and I don't think it's the worst thing that guarantees a child's downfall. We have not found it to be too effective--one of our children is not always cooperative, but spanking only makes things worse with him.

A TCS leader replied:

> So the difference between you and a violent thug who can't, for the moment, find a way of inflicting pain *successfully* is ... what?]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 13:45:44 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15271 http://curi.us/comments/show/15271
Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
> When one gives reasons for one’s verdict, one assumes responsibility for it and lays oneself open to objective judgment: if one’s reasons are wrong or false, one suffers the consequences. But to condemn without giving reasons is an act of irresponsibility, a kind of moral “hit-and-run” driving, which is the essence of the Argument from Intimidation.

Bruce, Dennis and others are condemning without giving reasons.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:21:49 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15270 http://curi.us/comments/show/15270
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> You seem to be using obedience as a measure of rationality.

And it accuses the person of using reason as "just another weapon to suppress the childs will" in "your case".

And in another followup post titled "[Name] on coercion", the TCS leader said it was a "scary thought" that [name] meant the thought he posted. There's also another post from this leader with a different person's name in the subject line, and neither of those people are the same one who was criticized for using reason as a weapon.

So putting people's names in subject lines is not something unique to the FI group, it was done on the TCS list before any of them joined.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:03:54 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15269 http://curi.us/comments/show/15269
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> > Non-coercion requires the interplay of reason. I think that fairly young children (under six) do not find *reason* very persuasive.
>
> This shows that you are regarding "reason" wrongly (or to be less rude - that you and I mean different things by "reason"). If you have the assumption that a child is not rational, you don't need the anecdotal evidence. If you are using the fact that you and your child fail to reach agreement as evidence *for* the statement that a child does not have reason, then a sceptic such as I might point out that that is equally evidence that *you* are not behaving rationally.

...

> In case there is any remaining doubt about the difference in the way we are using the term, let me translate your sentence, using my definition of "reason": "I think that fairly young children (under six) do not find *my being willing to change my point of view, etc.* very helpful." I agree that a *dog* would not find that very helpful, but it is just silly to suggest that of a child. If it *were* true, *that* would be a sign that children don't have reason.
>
> If you are not open to criticism, as most parents are not, then if you ever *were* wrong, you'd *never know*. In the overwhelming majority of disputes between you and your child, I happen to think your child is right and you wrong. That does not prove that the child is right and you wrong, but it does prove that it is not *obvious* that you are right in any given disagreement.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 01:56:53 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15268 http://curi.us/comments/show/15268
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> Oh dear. I really didn't like it [*Punished by Rewards* by Alfie Kohn] at all! Yes okay, his conclusion is true. But he seems to me to be using the perceived authority of science to convince the reader, when in fact the "evidence" is more pseudo-science than science. The criticisms I have made in the past of the pseudo-scientific empirical studies that (for instance) "show" television to be harmful apply to this "evidence" too. It seems to me a really bad idea to back up our ideas with "evidence" that just isn't what it purports to be. It is dishonest.

What more typical movements would see as an allied author, this TCS leader decides to call out as a "dishonest" person. But today, ignorant newcomers, who have been misled by some people who ought to know better, think curi's comments on dishonesty disqualify him as TCS. (FYI, curi wrote a serious essay on lying and thinks lying is a common problem that merits criticism and problem solving effort. https://elliottemple.com/essays/lying )

The TCS leader ends the post by repeating the accusation of dishonesty and saying it's " not an innocent mistake", as well as trashing the quality of argument in the book:

> I am saddened to see those whose views I share adopting the same dishonest tactics as those whose purpose is to deceive the reader into thinking that there is scientific evidence for views *opposing* ours. This is not an innocent mistake. Appealing to the perceived authority of science is a way of avoiding criticism that could in fact address the issue. That is why he never bothers to explain his view or argue the case. Why should he? He has the backing of the Authority of Science. Who would question *that*?

I'm not objecting to what the TCS leader said. I'm just trying to clarify for people what TCS actually is.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 01:32:09 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15267 http://curi.us/comments/show/15267
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> As for the alleged "poor level of stimulation" [from TV]: Is the child watching a documentary about the First World War getting a "poor level of stimulation" because he can't *smell* the gangrene? Of course he might be smelling the toast in the toaster, or the dog on his lap, or the honeysuckle outside the window - or does that not count as "stimulation", because it does not relate to what is on the screen? Or what? Presumably, Gareth Lewis would be even more scathing about people who stand for long periods, transfixed by the exquisite beauty of certain great paintings, as I did on a recent trip to the Tate Gallery? After all, not only are these images "only two-dimensional", they are *unmoving*, and devoid not only of smell and taste, but of sound too. But perhaps "sensory deprivation" "may do no harm" if it is only for "the odd hour here and there"? Why does Gareth Lewis make that little concession, which contradicts his whole thesis? Is it that he wants to reserve the right to make children stand in the corner?

This is how a TCS leader responds to a non-TCS article, in an official capacity, in the TCS journal. The response goes on to presume that Lewis hates books since they don't have sound (so fewer senses are stimulated) and to call one of his ideas "Nonsense!". But then it returns to a main point: accusing Lewis of being coercive towards his own child (I agree with the speculation and the argument, FWIW, but most people wouldn't think this is being "nice"):

> But again, what he is really concerned about is the content. He is not really worried that the child's abilities will be diminished. His concern is about the child's ideas being contaminated by ideas he thinks are false. As he himself puts it: "The nature of these programmes themselves also gives cause for concern." His reaction to these false ideas is forcibly to take his child away from them, however much the child values them.
>
> Nor is it true that children's television programmes are banal. They are just not what Gareth Lewis thinks they ought to be. He asserts that television-watching has shortened children's "attention spans". But "attention span" is a cultural phenomenon. It is the period for which, with the maximum amount of coercion available in a particular culture, one can make a child of a given age do what he does not want to do.

I think that's a good point about attention span, but it's harsher than the vast majority of FI posts.

> So the only way of learning about drug addiction is to have a real-life experience of it? [...] If so, it is Gareth Lewis who is not inhabiting real life.

and

> If one were to make a television programme "full of meaningless images", nobody would watch it. In fact, television images are meaning*ful*. It is precisely the meaning in them that Gareth Lewis objects to. He thinks they have the wrong meaning as far as he is concerned. Calling them "meaningless" is just his quaint way of saying that he does not like them.

and

> In using the word "over-stimulate", Gareth Lewis is appealing, as he does throughout, to the pseudo-science at the beginning of his article. "Waste of time" really means "Why won't this person act upon *my* ideas rather than his own?" By "precious time", Gareth Lewis means time precious to *him*. To the children who watch television because they enjoy it, what they are doing is *more* precious than that which he wants them to do; and it is *their* time he wants to occupy, not his.
>
> The interesting thing about Gareth Lewis's statement that "...no one should fall out with their children over an argument about television," is that the article is no more than one long justification for why one *should* fall out with one's children over television. Presumably he wants to be seen as liberal in regard to education, so he envisages children obeying without a fight. He'll only fall out with them if he 'has' to - i.e., if they *don't* obey without a fight. But the problem is, he wants to interfere with their learning and severely disrupt their lives according to a theory that simply does not make sense. If that is his vision for them, and if he is prepared to use force to make them enact it, he *will* fall out with them over it. That is completely inevitable.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 01:20:28 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15266 http://curi.us/comments/show/15266
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> Subject: TCS Apostate Renounces The Word of Popper
>
> [Name] wrote:
>
> > There are aspects that I see here that are *very* close to religious. Some of them include several people saying the exact same things, in the exact same ways. It's almost as if it's practiced and recited from memory. Another aspect that strikes me as somewhat religious is the concept that "one can get to TCS *only* through the word of Popper."
>
> To those who may be misled by the quotation marks: no one has ever said that. If they have, they were mistaken. As [name] should be fully aware, given that he thinks TCS "is an *amazing* theory" (see his post "TCS as religion", Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:26:12 PST), TCS is independently arguable. Indeed, I stressed this very fact explicitly in private email to him on June 26th last year, and no doubt many times before that.
>
> In future, please do not make allegations or suggestions that TCS folks (or others) have said something without providing the reference and preferably the quote itself too, as I have done above. Thank you.
>
> [TCS leader's name]
>
> "We are fallible, and prone to error; but we can learn from our mistakes."
> -- OK 7:265

Accusations against TCS without quotes are quite an old phenomenon. curi's common response of asking for references/sources/quotes to go with accusations (e.g. asking for a source and exact quote of him allegedly being rude and an explanation of what's bad about that quote), and asking people not to put inaccurate words in his mouth, is not an original policy. It's just a continuation of TCS community culture that predates curi.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 00:57:48 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15265 http://curi.us/comments/show/15265
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> [...] I find the idea of your standing by and watching a cat biting and scratching your son rather abhorrent. [...]
>
> I fear, [name], that what you are doing is nothing more than a rather cruel punishment. I think you see no marks on his skin, but you are hoping that the experience will mark his mind. It sounds as though you are hoping that the pain and distress you are inflicting (and it *is* you, not the cat, who are responsible) will change his behaviour in a direction more to your liking.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 00:41:58 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15264 http://curi.us/comments/show/15264
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> Aren't they "a lower life form"? Maybe the reason they don't get the respect people do is because they are not people!

and

> But your cat *isn't* a person, and you can only interpret her wishes. I do not think animals have wishes in the usual sense of that word anyway, for reasons I'll give later.

and

> If your child thinks he has a good reason for killing the budgie, will you approve? What makes you think *your* view of the situation is better than your child's? What makes you think that your view justifies coercion of the child? Where there is a disagreement, the only way to avoid systematically getting the wrong answer is by remaining open to criticism and seeking truth.

and

> But what if the dog is howling and yelping? Can't we be sure it is expressing displeasure -- telling us that it does not want to do this, for example? No. Plenty of people howl and yelp doing things they want to do. Look at masochists. Look at various sportsmen. Look at me when I am trying to edit an article: I moan and groan and howl in a most alarming way (I'm told) -- but still I am doing something I *really want to do*.
>
> I don't think there is such a thing as what a dog wants (in the sense of having individual intentions arising out of its own free will), but if there *were*, I don't think there would be any justification for assuming that it wants, for instance, to have a minimum of pain, any more than human beings always do. Human beings choose painful options over non-painful options all the time, and I am not just talking about masochists. It depends on whether the painful option seems better.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 00:39:58 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15263 http://curi.us/comments/show/15263
Anonymous The Taking Children Seriously and Fallible Ideas Communities
> One day a mom posted a message saying that she was having trouble getting her toddler son to take his daily, life-saving medicine. The parents felt they had no choice but to hold him down and make him swallow it. She was looking for ways to make this less traumatic for her son. Most of the suggestions were what one might expect, like hiding the medicine in food or bribing the baby with candy. Then a woman named Sarah Lawrence posted something entirely different. She accused the mother of abusing her child by forcing him to do something he didn't want to do. “If you were my mother,” she finished, “I would kick you with a hobnailed boot!”

That's an example of what a TCS founder posted on a non-TCS forum. I think FI has successfully toned things down (curi wouldn't made the comment about physical violence against the mother) without betraying the core ideas.]]>
Sun, 26 Jan 2020 00:18:38 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15262 http://curi.us/comments/show/15262
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
If you aren't familiar with Brett's years of posting history, you don't know the context in which issues with him came up. If Brett would write a blog post objecting to something and explaining what happened and the relevant context, you could piggyback on it. You could say "Brett made these arguments about this grievance; they make sense to me." and then you could use his issue. But when you don't know much about it and he hasn't written anything documenting and explaining it, then you're basically just going by gossip which is often incorrect and can't be defended against well because it doesn't have specific accusations and evidence.

You can also use grievances which are not your own if you have full information. E.g. if a new person shows up and has a conversation for 30 minutes, and you read the entire thing, then you may well have full info. In that case, you could write a blog post documenting what happened, using quotes and evidence, and making arguments and criticisms. You could make an objective case about the matter even though it wasn't about you personally.

But in general, people should complain about things that happened to them (and try to do it objectively with quotes, with laying out reasoning that they object to things, etc., not by gossiping to their friends with sloppy and inconsistent stories that, if misleading, are hard to defuse and fix). If Joe doesn't object to what happened to Joe, in general you shouldn't object for him – if he's not complaining about how he was treated, why do you think there was anything wrong with it? It's hard for you to know Joe's perspective. Apparently people dealt with him in a way he was fine with, so they did a good job of understanding how to deal with him. Or maybe he didn't like it but doesn't think it's his right or place to complain, and wants to let it go, so you should let it go. If OTOH Joe is a gossip who won't make serious arguments involving facts, then again you should let it go because there's no serious case that Joe is right or has any accurate grievance, and Joe is acting in a way that's bad for truth seeking and problem solving.

I don't recall, offhand, a single grievance with FI or myself that makes a serious effort to be objective and use facts and quotes. People gossip. People make accusations. But no one seems to care to e.g. put together a blog post with quotes and criticism of those quotes, and then consider counter-arguments and actually try to figure out what's true instead of just smearing people.]]>
Sat, 25 Jan 2020 15:13:41 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15261 http://curi.us/comments/show/15261
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
If no one is named, no individuals have responsibility. So nothing happens. You can't negotiate or problem solve with groups when no individuals will take a leadership role with responsibility.

The Four Strands leadership doesn't want responsibility for their actions. I don't even know who owns it.

If I didn't even name the people in leadership that I know of, how would anything happen to address the problems? Who would do it? Members of the group would just fortuitously volunteer to deal with stuff as needed, and that would reliably happen? I don't think so.]]>
Sat, 25 Jan 2020 15:06:16 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15260 http://curi.us/comments/show/15260
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
Lulie chiming in, sorta, with no attempt at reason, problem solving or being nice. This is contrary to some of her past statements when she e.g. asked people to stop harassing me, defended me as a good person, said I wasn't doing anything wrong but the other people were, etc.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 17:51:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15256 http://curi.us/comments/show/15256
Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
>> Why prioritize this over working on philosophy more directly?

> Because I lose interest in working on philosophy directly.

But today Brett poses as a philosopher.

Similarly:

>>>> why prioritize [learning coding stuff] over more FI?

Brett:
>>> Yes...if I knew lots more epistemology at a higher level that'd be a way to increase my learning everywhere by a big factor. I'm still struggling with that. And where to start.

>> Don't you TEACH epistemology – so it's your job to know it better? (That's what your twitter says: https://twitter.com/tokteacher ). Why would you teach it and choose that sort of job if you aren't super interested enough to learn it really well, now, directly?

Brett, after saying how he teaches nonsense and political indoctrination, went on to say:

> But yes: I should know [epistemology] better. So I can help those who want my help with this stuff better.

He went on to say

> The "ToK" syllabus is a confused mess

Yet he was subjecting children to it with the thin justification that if he didn't hurt those kids, someone else would hurt them worse. Brett also said one of the reasons he was posting to FI is he wants to:

> Ultimately to undermine coercive schooling and change things globally where kids are being destroyed.

By his own view, he was participating in *destroying children*, and he knew it, and he was admitting it to other people who also see it that way. So when he got some negative reactions, they were expected. Rather than being surprised or offended, he treated it like normal conversation and defended and rationalized his actions with arguments. The problem for him came later because what he wanted was TCS/CR approval for what he was doing, and he couldn't get it – instead what he was getting was challenges to his rationalizations (and therefore self-esteem).

As an outsider, it's hard to understand the perspective of TCS, of FI, or of Brett, re schooling. Consequently, you should focus on your own problems or grievances and let other people speak for themselves.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:16:05 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15255 http://curi.us/comments/show/15255
Ayn Rand Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
re everything, does problem solving interest you?]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:53:11 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15254 http://curi.us/comments/show/15254
Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
1) You have a wall of shame where you track everyone who left your forum (http://curi.us/2215-list-of-fallible-ideas-evaders). I find this weird and creepy.

2) You are obsessed with Ayn Rand and share many of the same flaws she had, for example, overconfidence in your ability to determine what is "rational" and "irrational," which leads you to attack those you deem irrational.

3) Brett Hall made a post here where he said he was a teacher, and you said "fuck you" to him because you apparently think "fuck you" is an appropriate response to any teacher at any school whatsoever, except under rare circumstances where education is completely voluntary. I disagree with this, but I bet you'll call me "irrational" and say "fuck you" to me as well.

4 This forum doesn't even appear to be particularly related to Critical Rationalism. For example, scrolling through the discussion, most of the topics seem to be about other things.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:45:59 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15253 http://curi.us/comments/show/15253
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
> Though I feel the *pressure of agreeing with everyone about how much we all dislike Elliot*, I have already done that now, and feel that I can say that I do not recommend doing any of that without giving him a chance to speak first. Though difficult to engage with, he's knowledgable, and should he ever want to interact with us, we should let him, and should let him continue to do so until there are any "offenses".

Bruce Nielson responded:

> Well said, Dennis.

But neither Dennis nor Bruce acted accordingly. They did not give me a chance to speak first. They did not let me interact with them until I did something wrong.

The comment about how their community pressures everyone to dislike me a lot is notable. It goes to show how they are working to splinter the community by pressuring people to take sides. By contrast, I'm asking them what it would take to solve this problem and unsplinter the community, and they don't answer.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:42:13 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15252 http://curi.us/comments/show/15252
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:36:39 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15251 http://curi.us/comments/show/15251 curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
It could be dealt with but the underlying problem seems to be that they don't want solutions. Each time I address something they move the goal posts, and they're frequently rude and pretty open about their hatefulness. You can't solve problems with people who don't want to. I think that's the impasse.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:32:15 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15250 http://curi.us/comments/show/15250
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/vxrAyWlgDZEjXTn-505x187.png)

Apparently he prefers communities based on the rule of man instead of the rule of law, and he dislikes explicit communication as part of problem solving?]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:24:15 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15249 http://curi.us/comments/show/15249
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/WZrdR2H8X1RQBeX-537x364.png)

Changing the issue to obligations is a biased way to miss the point.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:20:54 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15248 http://curi.us/comments/show/15248
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/eHcLm8pxN9iUa6c-519x479.png)

This is clarifying who acts by CR and TCS ideas and who doesn't. Win/win solutions? Common preference finding? All life is problem solving? Problems are soluble? By an effort we can deal with culture clash and learn from each other? Your judgments of me are fallible? They don't seem to believe or live by any of this. Or, hopefully, they'll reply soon and start being reasonable.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:16:42 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15247 http://curi.us/comments/show/15247
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/6XdugzdYVhmwDDw-356x204.png)

He's openly uninterested in solutions or problem solving. He's rejecting CR, TCS, etc.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:09:20 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15246 http://curi.us/comments/show/15246
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/JyuBzpeKeIC9uKa-514x538.png)

Still haven't gotten any productive responses or attempts to solve problems, just people being mean to me.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:42 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15245 http://curi.us/comments/show/15245
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/nGx505whR415g24-531x746.png)

![](https://curi.us/img/xsb4YMd3EOqocAH-520x723.png)

![](https://curi.us/img/nXdmRmEmts87Gu9-515x565.png)

The discussion is getting derailed by newcomers, who have no idea what the issues are, making sloppy statements. Why don't people like Bruce or Dennis attempt to do problem solving in a more serious and preferably non-Twitter way? They've never tried before and have refused me repeated requests and attempts without explaining. If problem solving isn't a thing they do, they have nothing to do with CR!]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:00:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15244 http://curi.us/comments/show/15244
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/lRUIvjaLleBNeri-517x745.png)

I'm bending over backwards to try to be reasonable with people who aren't even trying to act like they want to do problem solving, they're just being jerks to me while accusing me of being a jerk in some undefined, general way.

The statement against saying what they mean is notable and shows how they are dealing with this using social thinking instead of rational thinking.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 12:55:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15243 http://curi.us/comments/show/15243
Update Anne B Anne Discussion
1. Greatly reduce my error rate

2. Do postmortems on errors

3. Remember that is is my responsibility to decide what I think and do, and consciously decide whether to follow advice/suggestions/requests/orders from the voice in my head or from other people

4. Focus on the real world rather than the social world

5. Notice when I’m emotional and realize that my emotions will affect my thinking

6. Enjoy trying to solve difficult problems

7. Notice when I’m uncomfortable with something I’m doing and take that as a sign that maybe I’m not doing one of the other things on this list well

To work on these habits, I plan to:

A. Check every FI post for these things before I post it.

B. Re-read my list twice a day and try to keep it in mind the rest of the time.

C. Remind myself of one or two of these before non-FI events where I think I might need that particular reminder.

As I do this plan, I may study some subject areas. Today I'm trying out some programming stuff in Simply Scheme.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 05:44:01 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15242 http://curi.us/comments/show/15242
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/dNDObeKX2wo4ioc-768x712.png)]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:57:06 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15241 http://curi.us/comments/show/15241
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/o1YSECRVEhTZWan-790x645.png)]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:39:11 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15240 http://curi.us/comments/show/15240
Lies in #15233 Anon2224 Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
[had to look up dictionary definition of “denigrate”]

He’s saying that curi lied about Deutsch. What lie? Why no quote and explanation of the supposed lie? Because he’s lying about curi (that curi supposedly lied about Deutsch).

> He is no fan,

In my view, Elliot is the biggest fan of Deutsch in the sense that (1) he understands Deutsch’s worldview better than anyone else, and (2) he promotes Deutsch’s worldview more effectively than anyone else. No one else even comes close. See Elliot’s many websites and discussion forums discussing Deutsch’s ideas. If somebody thinks I’m wrong about this, I challenge you to stick your neck out and tell me who is a bigger fan, while stating what metrics you used to come to your conclusion.

Claiming Elliot is not a fan, without argument, without quotes and explanations, is lying.

> he is no friend. He is an enemy of the fans of David Deutsch. He should be shunned.

Elliot is a friend to anyone interested in truth-seeking. That is something Deutsch’s worldview says is good.

Claiming that Elliot is not a friend to fans of David Deutsch without explaining what constitutes a friend and what constitutes a fan is not a truth-seeking effort. It’s lying.

> It is laughable given some of the things he has said over the years, that he represents anything like a community of fans of Deutsch.

He’s implying that FI members (like me) are not fans of Deutsch, without argument, without quotes, without anything that could (rationally) persuade someone. It’s a lie.

> He is a danger to any such community and should be taken seriously as a threat to the ongoing harmony between actual fans and progress towards improving and promoting David’s worldview.

This is just a repeat of an earlier lie. See my reply above to the text “He is no fan”.

> That very post above is testimony to the fact Curi will continue to hurt people who try to peacefully engage in friendly discourse about critical rationalism and related matters.

He’s implying that Elliot is not being peaceful and is being hurtful, again without quotes and without arguments about why he thinks Elliot’s actions are not peaceful and are hurtful. Another lie.

> The problem has been identified over the years repeatedly: it is Curi. Curi is the common factor. Curi is the problem. He has asked we have told him. And here and now again: Curi: you are the problem. The rational solution is: avoid Curi. And that’s what the community is attempting to do. Unreasonably and with great hostility he is now trolling members of these new communities and refusing to disengage when asked.

Claiming Elliot is being hostile and trolling, while giving false reasons ("He has asked we have told him", "refusing to disengage when asked") is another lie.

> There is no “path forward” because that entire set of doctrines is itself is a set of coercive mechanisms for guilting people into engaging with Curi even when they feel, know and understand explicitly or implicitly that such activity will only cause them distress. Curi: you need to leave them alone and stick to your own FI group of forums. We’ve asked politely and clearly.

Claiming that Elliot’s path forward policy is a coercive, without explaining why he believes that, is another lie. The text following the claim might look like an explanation to some people, but it’s not. Elliot’s path forward policy does not say nor imply that people should engage with the policy while not wanting to (distress implies not wanting to).

There were more lies that curi mentioned: #15234]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:52:32 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15239 http://curi.us/comments/show/15239
Personality quiz Anon99 Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
(A) Warm, friendly, fun, relaxed, humble.

(B) Cold, hectoring, defensive, narcissistic.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:16:21 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15238 http://curi.us/comments/show/15238
#15233 Anon2224 Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
> [Elliot] is a danger to any such community and should be taken seriously as a threat to the ongoing harmony between actual fans and progress towards improving and promoting David’s worldview.

but right before that, in the same comment, he said:

> [Elliot] should be shunned.

and

> It is laughable...

David's worldview recognizes shunning as evil, and laughing at people who you think made mistakes (a type of shaming) as evil. So this commenter is presenting himself as a greater fan of David than compared to Elliot while not knowing some basic stuff about David's worldview.

I'm not sure it's right to call these things basic. Maybe fundamental is a better description. David's worldview is centered around fallibility and truth-seeking. Shunning and shaming people is counter-productive to truth-seeking. Shaming people for making mistakes is counter-productive to fixing mistakes (which is needed for truth-seeking).

Oh and then there are the lies that the commenter said which curi explained in #15234. Lies are counter-productive to truth-seeking. Lying is antithetical to David's worldview.]]>
Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:25:34 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15237 http://curi.us/comments/show/15237
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:18:33 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15236 http://curi.us/comments/show/15236 Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:16:22 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15235 http://curi.us/comments/show/15235 curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
> refusing to disengage when asked.

This is a lie for the purpose of slandering my reputation. What was I asked to disengage with?

> We’ve asked politely and clearly.

Who has asked what? Quote? You're lying to smear me.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:39:57 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15234 http://curi.us/comments/show/15234
Curi is no “fan” Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:30:11 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15233 http://curi.us/comments/show/15233 curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Thu, 23 Jan 2020 20:01:14 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15232 http://curi.us/comments/show/15232 curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
https://twitter.com/mizroba/status/1220555219555229702

The ‘Old Guards’ concept, and attacking them as a group (for the trait of taking things seriously, as David Deutsch named one of his philosophies after), is just the sort of hostile factions problem I'm talking about. Notice the lack of interest in problem solving or cooperation. He also further testifies the ongoing policy of people avoiding open competition and trying to prevent everyone from knowing about the whole community's existence in order to decide what they like for themselves. Yet while unaware of FI's existence, he's already been biased to be hostile to it and flame it! That's not an accident. People have been gossiping negatively against FI.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:58:32 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15231 http://curi.us/comments/show/15231
Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:33:04 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15230 http://curi.us/comments/show/15230 curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/oifYKJac5m83kx5-609x657.png)

I don't want to post their malicious quotes right now because it'd make it harder for them to switch to problem solving mode and change their ways. I'm trying to offer them a chance to fix this. I only mentioned them because the guy doesn't seem to believe me that there's an actual problem.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:27:03 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15229 http://curi.us/comments/show/15229
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
https://twitter.com/ks445599/status/1220513291564306433

I'm not confident that he read my post before commenting. I replied:

> You could have several forums with different purposes, formats or styles which sometimes talk about and refer to each other. We have a different situation: they are trying to splinter the community into hostile factions without explaining or problem solving.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:12:07 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15228 http://curi.us/comments/show/15228
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
![](https://curi.us/img/0QKcrBqmsAiHZk0-599x511.png)

That's not a problem-solving-oriented or CR-theory-inspired reaction.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:49:14 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15227 http://curi.us/comments/show/15227
Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
Is that a hurtful attack or a high quality article that provides the gift of critical discussion?

It's up to them to say what they object to, not for us to try to guess. It could be a hurtful attack to suppose they would take issue with that article, since that implies they're irrational. (I'm not claiming that. I don't know what they think of that article. They have not said.)]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:47:04 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15226 http://curi.us/comments/show/15226
Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:43:10 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15225 http://curi.us/comments/show/15225 Anonymous Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:42:13 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15224 http://curi.us/comments/show/15224 curi Politics Discussion
> Police Have No Duty To Protect You, Federal Court Affirms Yet Again]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:39:58 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15223 http://curi.us/comments/show/15223
curi Secondary David Deutsch Related Discussion Community
https://twitter.com/RealtimeAI/status/1220496917949534210

![](https://curi.us/img/q8DJtscY4HkbxCI-438x114.png)

This is vague, unargued hostility that shows no respect for reason and no interest in CR/DD/TCS ideas like problem solving or win/win solutions.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:07:09 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15222 http://curi.us/comments/show/15222
curi Open Discussion 2 (2019)
I also enabled phone number verification on the FI Discord. FYI I cannot access your email or phone number. You just verify them with Discord and then, essentially, Discord tells the FI server that you are verified, and that's all we know.]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:56:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15221 http://curi.us/comments/show/15221
curi List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
> *People who left are welcome to come back and try again.*

Maybe they didn't realize that?]]>
Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:53:42 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15220 http://curi.us/comments/show/15220
Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019)
> Physics students react to 1888 exam

Alan in particular may be interested.

Tangentially, the *group* seemed dumb, mocking and social, while the repeat *individual* guy said smart, substantive stuff.]]>
Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:15:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15209 http://curi.us/comments/show/15209
curi Popper Ignores Hamilton Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:03:25 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15208 http://curi.us/comments/show/15208 curi Open Discussion 2 (2019)
>> curi I meant “forgive” in the legal sense, like forgiving debt. I should have used the word “pardon.”

>> So if a murderer shows full remorse, or it was a special one-time murder (eg he killed the man who used to abuse him as a child) he can walk free? The purpose of criminal courts is to punish crime. There’s civil courts for restitutions. I think I’m aligned with Objectivism on this, for what it’s worth.

I replied:

>​ Rucka Reacts No he can't walk free. You don't know he's safe now. The courts don't know. He doesn't know. Introspection ain't perfect. Believing things are special-case one-time murders is not a reliable way to predict future aggression. I think the reason we should have e.g. 10 year jail sentences is to protect us given our imperfect knowledge. People's actions are hard to be predict and psychologists have huge disagreements with each other, it's not much of a science, but we do know that people who have committed crimes have shown they are willing to commit crimes so there's a danger there which merits defense (plus the policy of jail sentences deters some people from committing crimes in the first place, so it has two defensive purposes). If we were omniscient and knew a guy would never hurt a fly again, then yes let him go free, why not, it's harmless (he must not be allowed to gloat or anything like that, just go about his own business productively) – but if we're omniscient, we'd prevent his first crime too, presumably by teaching him good philosophy so he wouldn't want to be a criminal. I'm not trying to get anyone out of jail, I'm not a leftist, and I'd be fine with longer jail terms for lots of stuff.]]>
Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:00:42 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15207 http://curi.us/comments/show/15207
Internet vs. Library KP Popper Ignores Hamilton Wed, 22 Jan 2020 15:45:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15206 http://curi.us/comments/show/15206 curi Open Discussion 2 (2019)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKuOn9yuQNE

![](https://curi.us/img/pYOWmX0rukWWjMo-1036x683.png)]]>
Wed, 22 Jan 2020 14:55:53 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15205 http://curi.us/comments/show/15205
#15194 Anon2224 List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:35:05 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15196 http://curi.us/comments/show/15196 curi Second-handedness Examples
Second-hand ad. Use it because prestigious people are using it to stay ahead of other people. And it's bragging about how smart it is, and how it'll help you be smart – this is a company allegedly with literature, reading and writing expertise (they do book summaries) – but they don't know how commas work.]]>
Wed, 22 Jan 2020 00:52:49 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15193 http://curi.us/comments/show/15193
Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fallible-ideas/c4exGq9nTBU/8tgIjjbpBAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fallible-ideas/62scFDqeBJE/clnqOTbpBAAJ

Factually, Bruce has not faced up to these replies he received over a year ago.

In those replies, curi wrote things like:

> If Bruce knows of anything I’m mistaken about (one of those many things he disagrees with), I would be eager to hear it.

and

(curi, then Bruce, then curi):

>>> Or if you completely ignored discussion methodology, stopped reading negative into anything that isn’t a topical mistake, and just took things literally at face value, that could maybe work too (that’s hard and I’m not recommending attempting it).

>> I do not agree with this either. I think there is a real discussion
problem here. I'm just not convinced it's me.

> I believe Bruce’s choices are:

> 1) to discuss the discussion problem in order to improve it

> 2) to tolerate the discussion problem with no hard feelings

> or

> 3) to have hard feelings (leading to leaving)

> These choices are independent of whose fault it is.

Bruce didn't face up to explaining something curi is mistaken about nor to choosing between the 3 options (or coming up with an alternative).]]>
Tue, 21 Jan 2020 22:49:17 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15192 http://curi.us/comments/show/15192
anoymous Analyzing How Far I'll Go Tue, 21 Jan 2020 16:32:34 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15190 http://curi.us/comments/show/15190 Anon Open Discussion 2 (2019)
from the youtube transcript:
> so I think the rules and social reality
34:34
> are win-lose like there are conflicts of
34:37
> interest in social reality because
34:38
> you're competing you climb in the status
34:41
> hierarchy but in real reality it's more
34:43
> like physicists physicists collaborating
34:47
> where they can just all work together
34:49
> and win like Einstein discovering more
34:51
> stuff than you does not make you lose if
34:53
> you're a physicist you're gonna be happy
34:55
> it helps you understand physics better

How do socially friendly behaviors and relationships fit into this? Can they be win/win?]]>
Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:13:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15189 http://curi.us/comments/show/15189
#15177 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
There are many errors here. I want to focus on just one.

I think that the “results” that Anon99 is talking about is related to like how many people left FI, or how many people started a debate with Elliot and then stopped without resolution.

I think Anon99 is judging in terms of popularity. If more people debated Elliot than compared to now, Anon99 would give a better score.

That doesn’t make sense though. Quality matters, not quantity. Quality debate. Quality people. Who needs more debate and more people if they are going to be low quality?

People should judge the FI community not by how many people are in it, but by how much the people engage with each other, how many disagreements were resolved, how much they converge, etc. I think FI beats all other communities by these standards.

——

I wonder what Anon99 thinks about friends. Would he rather have 5 awesome friends or 1000 shitty friends? It’s an easy decision for me — 5 awesome friends please. I guess Anon99 might say, “why not have the 5 awesome friends and the 1000 less awesome friends?” You can’t have that. If you try to seek approval from the masses, you have to not say what you think, which means you would not have attracted the 5 awesome friends. And if you do say what you think, you attract the 5 awesome friends and you alienate the 1000 shitty people.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 17:27:00 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15188 http://curi.us/comments/show/15188
#15177 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
> I would like more precise definitions than appear on the page you linked.

more explanation from the original post:

> The way static memes suppress critical faculties is by getting people to judge in terms of the opinions of other people, and their social status, rather than in terms of facts, logic and reality. Static memes get people to replace their connection with objective reality with a connection with social dynamics.

So when a person is dealing with real reality, he judges things in terms facts/logic/reality. And when a person is dealing with social reality, he's instead judging in terms of the opinions of other people and their social status.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 17:05:18 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15187 http://curi.us/comments/show/15187
curi Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
Also, for people with bad discussion standards and methods, you can look at their books/articles/videos/etc (if they have any – most people don't) and find the occasional exception with value. But trying to talk with them directly usually doesn't add value – their books are better than their discussions. Most of them mostly don't want to discuss anyway. Most of the people interested in discussion are non-content-creators on the internet (and IRL but let's not get into that) who will quit discussion quite early if you ask about their goals for rationality, learning, truth-seeking, etc. – they won't even try for those things in an organized way, and they haven't read much and don't know much, so talking to them has lots of disadvantages compared to reading books and blogs, although it does have some upsides like you can test out methods of explaining things and get feedback.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 15:25:26 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15186 http://curi.us/comments/show/15186
curi Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
People who do neither of those (not FI methods nor alternative methods) are largely unable to share ideas productively, although there are the occasional exceptions. E.g. if you look at every physicist who made an important contribution, you'll find some of them did things similar to FI methods but some didn't. If you look at the physicists who made important contributions with bad methods, out of all physicists with bad methods or all people with bad methods, they're a very tiny minority. The vast majority of people use bad methods and don't manage to contribute significantly to the world's ideas. And it's harder in fields like philosophy where it's harder to be objective (measurements and math are areas where being objective is easier).]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 15:17:22 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15185 http://curi.us/comments/show/15185
Anon99 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics If not, what is your explanation for why not?
If so, is that not a criticism of the debating standards?]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:52:48 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15184 http://curi.us/comments/show/15184
Anon99 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics >
> > I believe there are ways to get that without offending or making good people doubt your trustworthiness.
>
> when that statement is itself offensive (because it suggests curi is untrustworthy). If you know how to argue points without being offensive, why were you so offensive?

I fail to see how that statement you quoted is offensive or says anything about curi. Neither does it imply I know how to do what I believe is possible. I also believe it's possible to run a marathon in less than 2 hours.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:33:59 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15183 http://curi.us/comments/show/15183
Dagny Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
> I believe there are ways to get that without offending or making good people doubt your trustworthiness.

when that statement is itself offensive (because it suggests curi is untrustworthy). If you know how to argue points without being offensive, why were you so offensive?

> From my outsider's point of view, many of the difficulties that curi has in attracting people to debate with him---and keeping them debating with him---appear to stem from his lack of concern about social etiquette.

I think what you're missing is that curi has standards for debate which aren't being met by debates he isn't in, either. In other words, no one else gets rational debates either. They just aren't happening anywhere, with anyone, in general. So the actual reason people won't debate him is because he's demanding debating standards they don't know how to live up to. This comes up explicitly. He links them to his debating standards and asks them to use those or link to written alternatives which solve similar problems which they propose using (so curi could learn and use their debating methodology or criticize it); they do neither. They want to debate by unwritten rules, which is irrational.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:16:57 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15182 http://curi.us/comments/show/15182
#15179 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
> While I understand that publicly pronouncing moral judgment gives you an opportunity to get feedback on your mistakes (error correction), I believe there are ways to get that without offending or making good people doubt your trustworthiness.

It gives both parties opportunity for error-correction, not just the person doing the pronouncement.

Does your written account provide methodology (with concrete examples) of how to publicly pronounce moral judgement "without offending or making good people doubt your trustworthiness"?]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:13:35 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15181 http://curi.us/comments/show/15181
Dagny Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
Also you bring up doubts about the trustworthiness of curi but haven't pointed out any trust he's ever broken. That's a smear.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:07:22 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15180 http://curi.us/comments/show/15180
Anon99 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
In any case, from my reading of what Rand said in *The Virtue of Selfishness*, the core of her view on pronouncing moral judgment is not that you must be socially blunt, but that you must continually make judgments (in your mind) and be prepared for others to do so of you. You must also make sure you do not allow people to infer that you agree with something you do not. In such cases you must speak up and correct the misperception (unless it's a Nazi banging at your door etc.)

She did call people out publicly from time to time---mainly people who willingly put themselves in the public eye---but I don't think that you have to do this to follow the prescription. She also spent a lot of time praising the good. For example, in her letters she would praise the good in people's work, even in people whose political views she completely opposed. In fact, I believe the good was her primary focus.

While I understand that publicly pronouncing moral judgment gives you an opportunity to get feedback on your mistakes (error correction), I believe there are ways to get that without offending or making good people doubt your trustworthiness.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:23:11 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15179 http://curi.us/comments/show/15179
#15177 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
It seems that you disagree with Rand about pronouncing moral judgement.

"One must never fail to pronounce a moral judgment."
- The Virtue of Selfishness

Do you have a written account of your disagreement with Rand?]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 09:37:23 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15178 http://curi.us/comments/show/15178
Anon99 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
I would like more precise [definitions](http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/definitions.html) than appear on the page you linked.

My impression is that social reality, as conceived by curi, is **not** reality. If so, I would suggest putting it in quotes---or at least putting the reality part in quotes---to make that distinction clearer. (Akin to how Ayn Rand put quotes around "compromise" whenever she was referring to "compromising" principles).

Otherwise people might conclude, for instance, that social reality *is part of* real reality. In my experience that is the prevailing view, along with the assumption that to do well in reality, you have to do well in "social reality". I have sympathy with that view.

From my outsider's point of view, many of the difficulties that curi has in attracting people to debate with him---and keeping them debating with him---appear to stem from his lack of concern about social etiquette.

I wouldn't feel comfortable debating him because I wouldn't trust him not to, for example, publicly denounce me with my name and email address. Part of me thinks "maybe I could do it anonymously", but another part (a stronger part) says, "I simply don't trust this guy to look for win/win."

My view is that curi is not being selfish enough and that his imprecision about "social reality" has led him to the wrong principle in dealing with it. Unfortunately his results *in reality* have not been sufficient for him to recognize the refutation. It seems to me he is behaving like a rationalist---putting theory over reality. This error can be corrected of course.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:58:06 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15177 http://curi.us/comments/show/15177
#15175 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:53:47 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15176 http://curi.us/comments/show/15176 Requesting definitions Anonymous Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics Mon, 20 Jan 2020 02:46:33 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15175 http://curi.us/comments/show/15175 Rodent Anonymous TheRat Chat
I always say rodent when I want to sound cool and get people on my side.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 02:09:50 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15174 http://curi.us/comments/show/15174
#15169 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
Caring about forgiveness is dealing with social reality instead of real reality.

Forgiveness is useless in real reality. What’s needed in real reality is error-correction.

Forgiveness without error-correction is just manipulation. People often ask forgiveness without doing anything to correct any errors, and instead they do it to get other people to act differently. It’s like the forgiveness-requester is lowering his social status to the person he’s requesting forgiveness from. That’s designed to manipulate the forgiveness-giver.

Error-correction without forgiveness is fine, at least in real reality. In social reality though, error-correction has negative value and forgiveness has positive value.

In real reality, error-correction is good and forgiveness (on it’s own) is neutral. But if forgiveness is used to resist error-correction, then it’s evil.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 01:13:22 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15173 http://curi.us/comments/show/15173
#15171 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
Speaking for myself, I care a lot about status in the sense that I care a lot about *errors*, and social-status-oriented thinking is one major type of *error*.]]>
Mon, 20 Jan 2020 01:11:03 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15172 http://curi.us/comments/show/15172
Anonymous Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics Sun, 19 Jan 2020 23:51:40 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15171 http://curi.us/comments/show/15171 curi Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
Similarly, superstition in general involves a sort of disconnection from reality which is one of the things caused by focusing on social reality. In social reality, the real facts have limited importance (some basic facts are socially accepted – stuff you're a fool for not knowing), so some non-facts end up being believed as convenient.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 23:17:58 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15169 http://curi.us/comments/show/15169
curi Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
Social dynamics often ignore or contradict facts. That screws up learning. Also, the other way around, learning involves finding out certain things are facts, which you won't want to do if you regard those facts as having social meaning you dislike. It can cause a lot of pain if you discover, factually, something you find socially threatening, or if you're torn between facts and social non-facts.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 21:00:52 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15168 http://curi.us/comments/show/15168
Jorge Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:48:03 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15167 http://curi.us/comments/show/15167 curi Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:51:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15166 http://curi.us/comments/show/15166 Jorge Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
I think learning aversion is a common SM. The mechanism it uses is that it makes
1) learning hurtful,

hence

2)people become bad at learning, that’s why people don't learn much after school years and think it’s boring

Which

3)Normalizes the aversion so it’s hidden in plain sight. It makes it harder to question.

3 is about social reality, but I don’t see how 1 and 2 have anything to do with social status or others opinions. The pain is not related to the social world. Am I wrong?]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:50:22 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15165 http://curi.us/comments/show/15165
curi List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:22:59 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15164 http://curi.us/comments/show/15164 Anne B Social Reality and Real Reality Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:28:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15163 http://curi.us/comments/show/15163 Anne B Second-handedness Examples
[transcribed, so there may be errors]

> Special Invitation
> You are cordially invited to an Educational Evening to learn how to Navigate Retirement at the prestigious [name of local fancy place] Country Club.

The financial services company is saying that the location they rented for their sales pitch is considered prestigious by other people. That's supposed to get potential clients to want to come to the sales pitch, so they can be associated with something that other people consider prestigious.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:22:38 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15162 http://curi.us/comments/show/15162
curi English Language, Analysis & Grammar
It's verb/action words which are less specified and noun/thing/object words which are more specified, in general. It's just that subject, object and complement aren't necessarily counted as modifiers – but they really are. I think that's controversial though. I believe lots of grammarians view subject and verb as equal, while others see verb as primary, so there's a debate there. I don't think there's a major school of thought which says the subject is primary and the verb is its modifier though, so that's an asymmetry. I don't think there's much interest in viewing "The salmon swam" as being primarily about a salmon and it being currently swimming being modifying info for the noun.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:49:49 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15161 http://curi.us/comments/show/15161
curi English Language, Analysis & Grammar
As a first impression, running and swimming don't seem more specific and informative to me than apples or houses.

Maybe it's because, other than "not", we don't generally modify our really generic verbs like "is", "would", and "have". While generic nouns like "thing" often get modifiers ("big thing").

It may be because verbs automatically get a subject and often get an object or complement too, and those don't count as modifiers in the adjective/adverb sense. While nouns don't get free extra info like that.

"is" is pretty low meaning on its own, similar to "thing", but it gains meaning, with no need for an adverb, when you add an object and complement.

The fact that swimming is done by Joe, a human being, gives you significant info about the swimming. Or if a dog swims, that also gives you info to help you imagine what action is happening.

Similarly knowing the subject gives you significant info about an eating action because different species eat differently. And knowing the object of the eating, e.g. soup or steak, gives you a bunch of info about the action too.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:03:44 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15160 http://curi.us/comments/show/15160
curi English Language, Analysis & Grammar
The metaphors with is/are on this page are mostly like that: https://literarydevices.net/a-huge-list-of-short-metaphor-examples/

You kinda ruin them as metaphors and literary devices if you specify them better. E.g. consider:

> Love is war.

If you say "Love is similar to war in the sense that there are multiple people involved in love affairs and multiple people involved in wars." then it's losing it's metaphorical nature and becoming boring, clear prose.

Adjectives help specify the types of comparisons to be made. E.g. calling a person "an animal" has many potential meanings while calling him "a vicious animal" has far fewer due to the adjective. You can use multiple adjectives for multiple dimensions, e.g. "a vicious, strong animal" tells you two specific types of animal-like-ness to focus on.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:49:42 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15159 http://curi.us/comments/show/15159
curi English Language, Analysis & Grammar
I think your examples both involve one dimension. I read "x is a house" as specifying the "type of object" dimension rather than meaning that x is house-like on some number of unclearly-specified dimensions.

I think it'd be problematic for formal logic to have links like "Joe is a giant" or "Joe is giant-like", without further definitions/info, so it's unspecified *which* similarities to a giant Joe has.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:33:35 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15158 http://curi.us/comments/show/15158
curi English Language, Analysis & Grammar
The apples smell rotten. -> The apples have a rotten smell.

BTW I was thinking that you could also go the other way and convert all noun-noun links to noun-modifier links. The purpose of linking two nouns is to give more info about the first noun, which is what modifiers do. It can be wordy and can require some guesses about context and meaning tough.

Joe is a giant. -> Joe is giant-sized.

That house is a mansion. -> That house is mansion-sized.

That dog is a monster. -> That dog is monstrous.

Joe is a true knight. -> Joe is knight-like in a very consistent manner.

There aren't adjective forms to correspond to all nouns but you can

But after trying it, there's a major conceptual problem here. When you link two nouns, there are many dimensions on which they could be similar, and you commonly don't state which dimension(s) you mean. Whereas adjectives usually (always?) deal with a single dimension like size. So to capture "Joe is a giant." properly with adjectives, you might need multiple adjectives: Joe is large, strong, tall, wide, courageous and good at throwing rocks. It could mean all of those while *not* meaning he's smelly or a monster.

The other conversions don't have this problem.

Noun is adjective. -> Noun is an adjective noun.

Here, the single relevant dimension (e.g. color) is specified by the adjective on both the left and the right (because we're linking to a noun with an adjective in front which specifies the relevant dimension). A noun can also have multiple adjectives to tell you that multiple dimensions matter. In "The large, red box.", both color and size matter. When you link to a noun without any adjectives to tell you what dimensions matter, then you're leaving the dimensions specified by context or ambiguous, and converting to a link to one or more adjectives is problematic because that requires specifying dimensions because, basically, adjectives are inherently linked to particular dimensions while nouns aren't.

But some adjectives, like "monstrous", are kinda ambiguous. I'm guessing that's common with adjectives derived from nouns. "Monstrous" could mean ugly or cruel among other things. One of the dictionary meanings for "monstrous" is "having the qualities or appearance of a monster" which you can see *does not specify the dimension*. It means basically "like a monster in some way". That's how links to nouns normally work. Adjectives normally are *not* like that: they specify information about a particular dimension like size, color, material, etc. This chart tells you adjective types (10 different standard dimensions adjectives apply to): https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/about-adjectives-and-adverbs/adjectives-order]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:29:20 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15157 http://curi.us/comments/show/15157
Alisa English Language, Analysis & Grammar
> The concept of linking a noun with an adjective is a little odd in general since they're two different things and it's not the same concept as linking a noun with another noun. Linking two things, and linking a thing with a modifier, are different.

IIUC, in predicate logic, those two things (linking a thing with a noun and linking a thing with a modifier) are commonly written the same way, e.g., one could write "H(x)" for "x is a house" and "G(x)" for "x is green".]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:19:47 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15156 http://curi.us/comments/show/15156
Alisa English Language, Analysis & Grammar
> The apples smell rotten. -> The apples smell like rotten apples.

> The apples smell rotten. -> The apples have the smell of rotten apples.

I wonder if those versions change the original sentence's meaning by making the smell specifically a smell of rotting *apples* rather than merely a member of the set of all rotten smells. Here's a rewrite that survives that criticism:

The apples smell rotten. -> The apples have the smell of something rotten.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:08:05 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15155 http://curi.us/comments/show/15155
curi English Language, Analysis & Grammar
The house is green. -> The house is a green house.

The link is between the noun and a second version of the same noun which is modified by the adjective.

When names or references are involved, the noun is sometimes rewritten:

Joe is clever. -> Joe is a clever person.

It is big. -> It is a big door.

Joe is the name of a person. "It" was referring to a door.

This idea removes a special case from English. It helps unify action and linking verbs so that they both only take a noun as an object/complement, rather than complements being nouns or adjectives, since I'm saying the adjectives can be seen as implied nouns.

FYI it's more awkward in some cases.

The apples smell rotten. -> The apples smell like rotten apples.

The apples smell rotten. -> The apples have the smell of rotten apples.

I had to add the "like" or change the verb to "have". You can't just put a noun after "smell".

The concept of linking a noun with an adjective is a little odd in general since they're two different things and it's not the same concept as linking a noun with another noun. Linking two things, and linking a thing with a modifier, are different. And we already have thing-modifier links: just say "green house" to apply the modifier "green" to the "house" noun. So there's a little bit of a mystery about why you'd say "The house is green".

Thinking of it as a link to an adjective is fine in general, but I think it's good to know this alternative view on what's being said. It makes things clearer and answers a bit of a mystery. Adjectives apply to nouns but why would they link with nouns? That's linking different, asymmetric things. That makes linking have two separate meanings. With nouns, linking relates two things. But with adjectives, linking isn't relating to things on equal footing, it apparently works a different way. And why use a link "The house is green" when you could just say "The green house" and apply the adjective to the house directly? One reason is to get a clause instead of a phrase. Anyway, my idea means adjectives only really get used the one way instead of two (applied to nouns, not in links) and linking verbs only really work the one way instead of two, so it simplifies things.

I thought of this myself and don't know where to look to find out of it's an original idea or not. Also I don't know the relevant history of the English language (or Latin or others) to know whether the concept actually developed this way or not.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:58:05 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15154 http://curi.us/comments/show/15154
#14990 44783 TheRat Chat
> I agree with our Rodent friend here.

He’s trying to sound cool by saying “Rodent” instead of the name “TheRat”. It’s a social climbing tactic. He's trying to get people on his side without explanations/arguments.

> curi thinks he can make unargued assertions and people asking him to defend himself are acting in bad faith.

This is an unargued assertion. Normally I’d ask for arguments/explanations but I’m not going to because I don’t expect this guy to engage me in a truth-seeking way.

> Essentially curi would fail undergraduate philosophy 101.

This is interesting for two reasons: (1) This statement is a social attack. It’s designed not for truth-seeking but for fooling the already-fooled. Failing an undergraduate philosophy 101 course is viewed as bad in our culture. (2) I think curi would actually fail an undergraduate philosophy 101 course, but I don’t think this for the same reasons as HR. I think he’d fail because the teachers would reject curi’s ideas unilaterally (ignoring curi’s ideas).

> I am glad that curi's feet were held to the fire, and he did not rise to the occassion. He lost every debate to several people. This was an illuminating experience for us all.

Some things I noticed:
- HR thinks pressuring people is good.
- No explanations or arguments. Nothing that has the potential to change anyone’s mind.
- Malevolent universe premise in action: HR does not want curi to succeed. He wants curi to fail. In contrast, a person operating under the benevolent universe premise would instead want curi to succeed (to rise to the occasion).

> The Rat characterized curi accurately. Makes unargued assertions then links you to his debate policy as a way to deflect having to defend his arguments.

This is either confused or deliberately dishonest. When curi links people to his debate policy (also his path’s forward policy, and I think there was another formal policy that gets at the same thing), the purpose is to help facilitate truth-seeking — to help go from disagreement to agreement.

> He should stop calling himself a philosopher and just call himself a self-help guru or something.

But curi doesn’t believe HR’s nonsense, so why should curi stop doing what he thinks is right? He shouldn’t. That would be second-handed.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 05:55:48 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15153 http://curi.us/comments/show/15153
#15014 44783 Static Memes Are About Social Dynamics
> What planet are you discussing?

This question is bad. It's more like a statement veiled as a question. The statement is: you're wrong.

The question (and the whole comment) is not designed to start a learning project (whether Anon learns something and changes his mind, or curi learns something and changes his mind, or both).

I think the comment is designed to shame curi for believing something that Anon believes should not be believed.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 05:35:44 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15152 http://curi.us/comments/show/15152
#15025 44783 Shadow Starshine Chat >> I've already established I think curi is a waste of time, far beyond the amount of effort it would take

> Shadow Starshine:
>> just to engage with some shit tier blogger

> The perfect description of Curi. some shit tier blogger

37 words (not including the name "Shadow Starshine") yet no productive content at all. No explanations. No arguments. Nothing. So what's the point?

It's not truth-seeking. Anon is not trying to help curi change his mind and he's not trying to help the audience change their minds about curi. He's just doing a social attack. He's trying to fool the already-fooled.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 05:28:57 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15151 http://curi.us/comments/show/15151
#15077 44783 [Excerpt] I was tired yesterday and my last post ha...
when you are sad, that is a different environment for the intellectual side of you than compared to when you are not sad.

you'd have negative thoughts, bad feelings, and maybe be crying. those negative thoughts, bad feelings, and crying can trigger other thoughts/emotions (note that you already have those triggers in your mind). if you were not sad, those triggers would not be firing.

also, thoughts can cause chemical changes (like in your brain). those chemical things are part of your mind's environment.

note that if you integrated your mind enough, you'd be able to use your intellect to solve the problem (the problem being that you have thoughts and feelings that you don't want). this is a way of making yourself resistant to some environments. you can delink your triggers, effectively rendering the triggers non-existent. this is another way of saying that you can change your habits such that instead of having a negative thought and that leading to a train of bad/unwanted thoughts, it instead leads to a train of good/wanted thoughts.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 05:17:43 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15150 http://curi.us/comments/show/15150
#15078 44783 [Excerpt] I was tired yesterday and my last post ha... > That is not how alcohol affects the brain. Nor how depression works.
> you clearly have not read any of the literature regarding addiction, nor depression.

Contradiction: the title of the comment claims illiteracy as curi's problem causing him to not understand how alcohol affects the brain, but in the 2nd line of the comment Anon says that it's clear that curi did not read the relevant literature. curi either read and misunderstood (from Anon's perspective), or he didn't read at all. Anon was so thoughtless that he made this kind of mistake in a comment that is only 27 words long (including the title).

With so little thought by Anon, I expect he didn't understand what he read from curi. I guess he was in attack-curi-mode and wasn't critically thinking about his own judgements/conclusions.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:55:13 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15149 http://curi.us/comments/show/15149
#15096 44783 Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
This is a fake admission that he is thinking in a fallible way, that he is not assuming he's right. It's fake because the rest of his post assumes various things to be true (no effort to find out he's wrong).]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:35:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15148 http://curi.us/comments/show/15148
#15127 44783 Ayn Rand Quotes Discussion
This is a fake question. The person isn't truth-seeking. He made a social attack veiled as a question. Note the use of the word "obsessed". I think it's common knowledge in our culture that being "obsessed" about stuff is bad.

A truth-seeking question would be like: "why do you focus your attention on status stuff, social dynamics, social climbing, etc?" This kind of question would lead to productive discussion.]]>
Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:29:47 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15147 http://curi.us/comments/show/15147
Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019) Sat, 18 Jan 2020 21:22:57 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15146 http://curi.us/comments/show/15146 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples
> Dating a girl who likes to order several different things at the same time. I don't even order because I just eat whatever she can't and there's still tons of food left over. A lot of times we'll offer some appetizers and entrees to the people sitting around us. She'll spend at least 15 minutes arranging everything just so before she starts taking pictures. The whole thing lasts several hours including eating.

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4424559&forum_id=2#39451734]]>
Sat, 18 Jan 2020 15:36:05 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15145 http://curi.us/comments/show/15145
curi List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
https://twitter.com/bnielson01

> Bruce Nielson

> @bnielson01

> Georgia Tech MS Student specializing in Machine Learning. Interested in AGI via study of Popper/Deutsch epistemology. Four Strands Community Manager.

Also, may I join the Four Strands groups (it's a slack and a google group, right?)?]]>
Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:30:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15144 http://curi.us/comments/show/15144
curi Mario Odyssey Discussion Sat, 18 Jan 2020 02:47:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15143 http://curi.us/comments/show/15143 Studying Metro route #5 GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
This section is explained in the guide starting at 5:31.

Guide’s explanations:
- During the long jump, wait a bit to get more distance before throwing cappy.
- Wait a moment after the cap throws to get the max height and distance from the cap jump.
- Says there is a 2nd way that is a little slower (5:50). I may do this if I have too much trouble with the first way.

Section 3 - 1st way (long jump):
- Fail. Crashed into girder. I think I long jumped too far to the right. I also think I didn’t wait long enough after the cap throw to get the max height and distance from the cap jump.
- Fail. Crashed into girder. Not sure what happened. Recorded and reviewed video. Still not sure. Compared my video with the guide and I’m still not sure. I’m going to try the 2nd way.

Section 3 - 2nd way (backflip):
- Fail. I didn’t even do the right moves. I should have rewatched the guide before trying this.
- Success. This was very easy.
- Success.
- Fail. Not sure why. I recorded and reviewed, and also compared to guide. Still don’t know.
- Fail. Same as above.
- Fail. Same as above.

After that I decided to watch my recorded videos and the guide at 0.25X speed. I played each video in small chunks, pausing to switch between videos so I could compare them more closely. I still don’t see what I’m doing wrong.

My recorded videos:
https://imgur.com/mC8puE9
https://imgur.com/GAC7A8Q
https://imgur.com/dzBWqKt

PS. I’m now thinking about my choice to do the 2nd way instead of the 1st way. If I fail doing the 1st way, I just fall onto the platform and lose a bit of time to get up to the top of the girders with good old wall jumps. If I fail doing the 2nd way, I fall into the abyss and die, losing a ton more time. I think sticking to the 1st way is better because it is a lot more error-forgiving.]]>
Sat, 18 Jan 2020 02:42:52 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15142 http://curi.us/comments/show/15142
44783 List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
> Ha, what happened? Did someone give you a taste of your own medicine or something?

> Why don't you just respect people's wishes and not use force against them like this?

These are fake questions. He’s not actually interested in knowing the answers to these questions.

> I thought only SJW's talked in terms of force when no force was used. I guess generic shit tier bloggers do too!

This is just social attacks. No criticism or anything valuable.

> I see no reason for #15130 to respect your privacy if you don't do the same for others.

This is so dishonest. He’s acting like the situation is symmetric, like both Bruce and Elliot did the same thing. It’s not symmetric at all. Not even close. Elliot posted public stuff to another public place. That is legal. And the purpose is moral. If anyone was actually interested in this, they’d read the blog post where it explains the purpose of the post.

> I know your giant ego blinds you to the fact that you're not special and shouldn't receive special treatment.

More dishonest bullshit.

> Think about it shit tier blogger. Personally, I hope you keep getting a taste of your own medicine. :)

So he thinks he was attacked and he thinks the way to deal with that is to attack back. That’s revenge and it’s evil. Often times when people do revenge, they misinterpreted the earlier action as an attack when it wasn’t. So they are doing revenge to somebody that didn’t attack them.]]>
Fri, 17 Jan 2020 17:38:09 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15136 http://curi.us/comments/show/15136
Post & Tree of my thoughts Andy Dufresne List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:39:18 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15135 http://curi.us/comments/show/15135 Studying Metro route #4 GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
Section 2:
- Fail in section 2.2. I waiting too long to throw cappy, resulting in not being at the peak of the awning jump.
- Fail in section 2.2. I didn’t let Mario do the full spin after throwing cappy.
- Success
- Fail in section 2.2. I didn’t let Mario do the full spin after throwing cappy.
- Fail in section 2.2. I didn’t know exactly what I did wrong. When I dived towards cappy, I did not jump on cappy. I recorded the video and reviewed it. Then I played around a bit with the controls and I think I figured it out. I did not hold the cappy throw button as I was diving towards cappy.
- Success
- Success
- Success
- Success
- Fail in section 2.2. Not sure what happened. Recorded and reviewed video. At least one mistake I made was to wait too long to throw cappy, resulting in not being at the peak of the awning jump.
- Success
- Success

So my success rate for section 2 is 6/7. And I know what I did wrong in that 1/7. So I think I should move on to section 3.]]>
Fri, 17 Jan 2020 06:00:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15134 http://curi.us/comments/show/15134
More meta about what methods to use next GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
I don't have a clear idea about what to do.

I guess I'll stick to the safer way of practicing the subsections (2.1+2.2) together before moving on to section 3.]]>
Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:46:14 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15133 http://curi.us/comments/show/15133
Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
Ha, what happened? Did someone give you a taste of your own medicine or something?

Why don't you just respect people's wishes and not use force against them like this?

I thought only SJW's talked in terms of force when no force was used. I guess generic shit tier bloggers do too!

I see no reason for #15130 to respect your privacy if you don't do the same for others.

I know your giant ego blinds you to the fact that you're not special and shouldn't receive special treatment.

Think about it shit tier blogger. Personally, I hope you keep getting a taste of your own medicine. :)]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:32:27 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15132 http://curi.us/comments/show/15132
curi List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
You have just threatened to commit additional acts of force unless I do what you want. You don't seem to understand the seriousness of what you're doing. This is not a negotiation. Last warning. Goodbye.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 18:39:07 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15131 http://curi.us/comments/show/15131
Howard Roark List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
How hypocritical of you.

If you want me to respect you and your minion's private information. I suggest you take steps to do the same for others.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 18:34:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15130 http://curi.us/comments/show/15130
curi List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
In case this is a matter of ignorance: doxing either is a crime where you live or should be, as is identity theft. It's not a joke or prank, it's the kind of thing that merits jail time. It's an attack on the civilized world, with its law and order, just like stealing property or assaulting someone. Civilization depends on refraining from violating the rights of others, and police, courts and jails are the appropriate response to violators.

Some people believe they're safe online and can't get caught, and that nothing can be done to fight back against their crimes. I suggest they look up examples of online criminals getting caught. It happens all the time.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 18:18:26 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15129 http://curi.us/comments/show/15129
Anonymous Ayn Rand Quotes Discussion Thu, 16 Jan 2020 17:39:54 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15127 http://curi.us/comments/show/15127 curi Ayn Rand Quotes Discussion
A difficulty with this method is people will deny their question means what you answered. This difficulty is prominent in discussions with equal social status. An interview with a high status person is a different situation.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 16:28:19 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15126 http://curi.us/comments/show/15126
Ayn Rand on whether ruling out whims leads to a joyless existence Alisa Ayn Rand Quotes Discussion
> Playboy: Couldn’t the attempt to rule whim out of life, to act in a totally rational fashion, be viewed as conducive to a juiceless, joyless kind of existence?

> Rand: I truly must say that I don’t know what you are talking about. Let’s define our terms. Reason is man’s tool of knowledge, the faculty that enables him to perceive the facts of reality. To act rationally means to act in accordance with the facts of reality. Emotions are not tools of cognition. What you feel tells you nothing about the facts; it merely tells you something about your estimate of the facts. Emotions are the result of your value judgments; they are caused by your basic premises, which you may hold consciously or subconsciously, which may be right or wrong. A whim is an emotion whose cause you neither know nor care to discover. Now what does it mean, to act on whim? It means that a man acts like a zombie, without any knowledge of what he deals with, what he wants to accomplish, or what motivates him. It means that a man acts in a state of temporary insanity. Is this what you call juicy or colorful? I think the only juice that can come out of such a situation is blood. To act against the facts of reality can result only in destruction.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:38:38 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15125 http://curi.us/comments/show/15125
Alisa List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
If this article's statements about you are *true*, then why should they be retracted? (If they were *false*, that would be a different matter, but you haven't argued that.)]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:00:52 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15124 http://curi.us/comments/show/15124
Exposing some of my meta self-discussion about my methods for speedrunning GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fallible-ideas/v11RBhDBDFg/nnZnUyHfCgAJ]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 13:59:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15123 http://curi.us/comments/show/15123
Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019) Thu, 16 Jan 2020 13:41:13 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15122 http://curi.us/comments/show/15122 Archives of Yahoo Groups Anon Open Discussion 2 (2019) Thu, 16 Jan 2020 11:36:39 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15121 http://curi.us/comments/show/15121 punish? 44783 List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
> Are you saying that the purpose of this post is to punish people for being 'evaders'?

how did you get the idea that the purpose of the post is to punish? I reviewed the discussion and it seems to me that you saw the word "evader" and jumped to the conclusion that the purpose of the post is to punish.

note that this is no different than calling someone out for lying. if personA thinks that personB lied, and personA says so and explains why he believes it, that's not punishment (hurt). It's help.

Only through a win/lose perspective will people view that as punishment.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:41:06 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15120 http://curi.us/comments/show/15120
#15108 anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
> Are you saying that the purpose of this post is to punish people for being 'evaders'? That's funny, that's not what the post itself said it was about:

>> It would be good to find patterns about what goes wrong. That would help people find out what the common mistakes are and avoid making them, and it'd help with organizing discussion to avoid some of the problems.

> So are you saying the post is lying about its purpose?

No. Try again.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 06:43:43 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15119 http://curi.us/comments/show/15119
Studying Metro route #3 GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
I watched the explanatory part of this section of the guide again. Smallant explains 2 common mistakes.
- Mistake 1: throwing cappy before the peak of the awning jump
- Mistake 2: not waiting for Mario to do the full spin after throwing cappy for the first time
- Mistake 3: not jumping on the highest part of the awning

Now I’ll try it out:
- Success!
- Fail. I didn’t even get close to pressing the right buttons.
- Fail. I didn’t do a wall slide. I think that’s because I wasn’t pressing the D-stick towards the building when I should have been.
- Success
- Fail 4 times. I think I made mistake #2 each time.
- Success
- Fail. I think I made mistake #2 again.
- Success
- Fail. I don’t think I made any of the 3 mistakes. I made a video and reviewed it. I think I waited too long to throw cappy after the awning jump, resulting in not being at the peak of the jump.
- Fail. Made a video and reviewed it but I can’t tell what I’m doing wrong. So I compared my video to the guide. I’m not waiting for the entire spin (mistake 2).
- Success.
- Success.
- Fail. Reviewed video. Still making mistake 2. I need to throw cappy and then have a slight delay (waiting for full spin) before pressing ZL.
- Success 5 times consecutively.

Ready to move on to next section of Metro route.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 06:39:19 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15118 http://curi.us/comments/show/15118
Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
Are you saying that the purpose of this post is to punish people for being 'evaders'? That's funny, that's not what the post itself said it was about:

> It would be good to find patterns about what goes wrong. That would help people find out what the common mistakes are and avoid making them, and it'd help with organizing discussion to avoid some of the problems.

So are you saying the post is lying about its purpose?

If this post were really about what it said it was, then there would be no perception at all that a request to take down a name (or at least an email) because the person is still in the group -- just lurking and reading instead of responding. In fact, a chance to rectify the truth would have been jumped on.

But if the post is lying about its purpose, then your behavior makes perfect sense. If your argument is correct, it would seem the idea that the post was being truthful has just failed to survive criticism. But that means that the request was a correct request after all because this post is a case of "initial use of force." So either way, it looks like you just lost that argument. The request was an appropriate request either because it correct false information or because the whole post was lying in the first place.

Also, a refusal of this request is inconsistent with the proclaimed purpose of the post, isn't it? In fact, it's a case and point of the very problem the post claims to be trying to solve.

> That indicates that you made your "request" as if by right and expected compliance by default.

But does it have to be taken that way? Or are you just reading in because it's convenient to you? Seeing as it was a question about who owed who the explanation, it can't really be said to be a demand. You are clearly reading in something that wasn't in the request.


> but about truth

That's what your arguments just called into question, isn't it?


> It's a bit like publishing a book and then demanding people not comment on it using your name and expecting immediate compliance without explanation

Actually, the request was to take down the name or *at least to remove the email.* Your analogy shows the problem here: there is no reason at all to include emails if the purpose of the post was to just determine why people are leaving and you are just quoting them. The email being included only makes sense if we assume the post is lying about its purpose and really it's about punishing people for leaving the group and wanting to dox them. Otherwise the request to at least take down the email would have been accepted as valid even if you felt the name and quote still belonged. (Which it doesn't for someone that is lurking in the group and hasn't actually left.)

> So you *do* think I am curi (I'm not).

We all know Elliot is reading this and is choosing to not respond. Whether or not you happen to be Elliot hardly matters.

Besides, the "you" in the original quote could have plausibly just referenced the site and the community, of which you personally have a part.

I believe I just refuted every point you've made.

Also, it seems to me that you are not giving your best to this discussion. Your claim that it was a demand (when it was phrased as a question and was rather polite) for example. Most people would have immediatley seen that it can't be called a demand and would have not made such a mistake. I do not feel you are serious about this discussion and that you are trying to read in things that aren't there to go for an 'easy win' rather than taking the discussion seriously.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 06:33:30 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15117 http://curi.us/comments/show/15117
#15108 anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:42:00 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15116 http://curi.us/comments/show/15116 #15108 anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
Two false assumptions here: #1, that the anon you are replying to is in a position to do the work you want (this is false cuz I am not curi and cannot edit his blog); #2, that someone should be indifferent between work that he sees the point of (such as explaining another person's errors) and work that he doesn't see the point of (such as complying with demands that have not been explained to the satisfaction of the person who is being asked to do stuff)

> > And I did alraedy give two fairly good explanations above. One of which is that I never left the group, so this is actually incorrect information.

What is "this"? The claim you're an evader? Do you think being a member of a mailing list rebuts that claim?

> So I'm trying to help you not have false information on your webpage.

So you *do* think I am curi (I'm not).

> Also, you falsely represented my request as a 'demand'. Would you agree that that was a misrepresentation of the polite *request* that I made?

No.

You said:

> Shouldn't it be the other way around? Now that I've made it clear that I do not want my personal information here, isn't it up to you to explain to me why you want to leave it here and don't you need to persuade me to change my mind?

That indicates that you made your "request" as if by right and expected compliance by default.

First definition I get on google for "demand" is:

> an insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right.]]>
Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:40:33 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15115 http://curi.us/comments/show/15115
Winning Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:56:25 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15114 http://curi.us/comments/show/15114 Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019)
topic in url. good stuff]]>
Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:06:53 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15113 http://curi.us/comments/show/15113
Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDTJTj1BSxU]]>
Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:41:34 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15112 http://curi.us/comments/show/15112
Anonymous Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
Curi very clearly dodged the question and did not answer it.

I agree with #15099 Curi is indeed a sophist. Personally, I have enjoyed the new nick he has received, Shit Tier Blogger.

A philosopher he is not.]]>
Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:02:08 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15111 http://curi.us/comments/show/15111
Demand? Bruce Nielson List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:06:45 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15110 http://curi.us/comments/show/15110 Explanation Bruce Nielson List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:58:57 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15109 http://curi.us/comments/show/15109 Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders
If 1) you **choose** to post on a public forum, 2) using your real name and 3) personal email address, (instead of using, say, a pseudonym on an anonymous account) then you have made an association between your name, email address, and some writing *public information* by your own act and choice. It's unreasonable to demand that others perform work for you cuz you later decide you regret having done this, especially without being willing to offer an explanation of your demand. It's a bit like publishing a book and then demanding people not comment on it using your name and expecting immediate compliance without explanation (not exactly like that, but similar).

I'm a different anon than the one who asked "Why?" btw.]]>
Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:44:41 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15108 http://curi.us/comments/show/15108
Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:37:29 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15107 http://curi.us/comments/show/15107 Why? Bruce Nielson List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:31:08 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15106 http://curi.us/comments/show/15106 Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:51:34 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15105 http://curi.us/comments/show/15105 Request Bruce Nielson List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Wed, 15 Jan 2020 07:49:01 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15104 http://curi.us/comments/show/15104 Studying Metro route #2 GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion - First I rewatched this section of the guide, then tried it. Tried 4 times before being able to jump on the awning at the right spot. And those 3 failures prevented me from doing the rest of this section. So I think I need to work on this individually.

Section 2.1: from first checkpoint to the awning jump.
- From watching the guide, I see that I need to do the first jump of the triple jump just before passing the fence.
- Smallant also mentions wall sliding down to the awning as a way to make sure that I’m jumping on the part of the awning that is closest to the wall.
- I tried this a few times before getting it right. On the time that I got it right, I tried to do the rest of section 2. It looked to me that things went well but I didn’t make it to the top. I must be making one or both of the mistakes that the guide explains.
- 3 more tries. 2 were good. 1 was bad. The bad one involved my 3rd jump of the triple jump resulting in hitting the awning. Not sure how that’s happening. I’m going to record video on this.
- Did 1 more try, intending to record video, and I did it right. I also did the rest of section 2 correctly. So I made it to the top of the building! See video 1 linked below.
- Did 1 more try. Did it right, but seemed awkward. Did the rest of section 2 wrong. I think I know one thing that I did wrong. I didn’t do the full spin before diving onto cappy, as the guide explains. See video 2.
- Did 1 more try. I took too long between jumps and ended up under the awning before I could do the 3rd jump of the triple jump to get on top of the awning.
- Did 2 more tries. Successful.
- Did 2 more tries. On both I didn’t start the first jump soon enough. I ended up hitting the awning on the way up. See video 3.
- Did 6 more tries. Successful on the first 5, then fail. I don’t think I jumped on the part of the awning closest to the wall. See video 4.

Videos:
1: https://imgur.com/i0wPlbU
2: https://imgur.com/5WCWHK7
3: https://imgur.com/WkStsuC
4: https://imgur.com/o8n2Dqh]]>
Wed, 15 Jan 2020 05:58:23 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15103 http://curi.us/comments/show/15103
Anonymous List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Tue, 14 Jan 2020 20:44:12 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15102 http://curi.us/comments/show/15102 Elliot in particular Bruce Nielson List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:31:15 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15101 http://curi.us/comments/show/15101 Still there? Bruce Nielson List of Fallible Ideas Evaders Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:29:18 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15100 http://curi.us/comments/show/15100 Anonymous Discussion with "Critical Rationalist" Tue, 14 Jan 2020 15:47:47 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15099 http://curi.us/comments/show/15099 DD on a pitfall for modes of criticism in which one specifies situations... Alisa Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
David Deutsch wrote:

> TCS, like scientific rationality, open-society theory, capitalism and every other kind of rationality, depends on creative thought. That creates an ever-present pitfall for modes of criticism in which one specifies situations and analyses what the system would do in that situation. The pitfall is that in specifying a model, one specifies the options available to the parties; but creative thought typically creates new options, and that cannot be specifically modelled.]]>
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 15:09:10 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15098 http://curi.us/comments/show/15098
DD on questions that contain a particular kind of misconception Alisa Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
David Deutsch wrote:

> Sometimes a question is hard to answer, not because the answer is complicated, but because the question contains one or more misconceptions which ensure that however carefully one frames the answer, the asker will hear something different from what is being said -- moreover, what they will hear will intensify the misconceptions. What one has to do in such a case is to refuse to answer the question as stated, but instead, criticise the misconceptions. Unfortunately, that often doesn't work either, because the questioner, interpreting the whole exchange via the misconceptions, simply views this as evading the issue and refusing to engage seriously in debate.]]>
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 15:03:30 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15097 http://curi.us/comments/show/15097
A or B. Anonymous Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
Please quote where he answers exactly this, anything else is a dodge. Dodging is Curi's specialty, but maybe I missed the answer and he didn't dodge.

So does he take the cure and save himself? Or sacrifice himself and save the others?]]>
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:46:53 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15096 http://curi.us/comments/show/15096
Studying Metro route GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
I’ll break the run down into sections. With each section I’ll watch the explanatory part of the guide and I’ll then I’ll try doing it. Once I don’t have big time losses anymore, I’ll move on to next section.

Section 1: start to first checkpoint flag. 3:30-3:45
- First I rewatched this section of the guide, then tried it and failed, then watched guide again and tried again. I failed but I knew why, so I tried again (without rewatching the video) and got it right. I did add an extra cap throw and dive (after the triple jump) to clear the abyss, where smallant relied only on a triple jump.
- I tried it again to see if I could replicate it. I got it right 2 times and then wrong on the 3rd time. I didn’t know exactly what I did wrong so I rewatched the guide. I thought I figured out what I did wrong and tried again. I got it right this time and I also did another thing better this time. I didn’t have to use the extra cap throw and dive — the triple jump was enough to clear the abyss.
- I tried it again and messed up the first triple jump and the 2nd triple jump. But I think I corrected course enough to not loose too much time. I did have to use the extra cap throw and dive.
- I tried it again and messed up just like last time, but also corrected course so that I didn’t lose too much time. I think I know what went wrong. I touched a wall as I was coming down from one of my jumps as part of my triple jump. That caused a wall slide, which interrupted the triple jump series.

Moving on to next section.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMTl5aVqHdA&list=PLiinoyifvFb64od8RyqPFmVqDrFwkgaa0&index=7&t=0s]]>
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 07:41:20 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15095 http://curi.us/comments/show/15095
Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019) Thank you.]]> Tue, 14 Jan 2020 00:58:32 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15094 http://curi.us/comments/show/15094 Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019) Tue, 14 Jan 2020 00:40:36 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15093 http://curi.us/comments/show/15093 Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019) Tue, 14 Jan 2020 00:39:09 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15092 http://curi.us/comments/show/15092 Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019)
Do you recommend anything other than "Reflections on the Revolution in France" by Burke himself to get a fair understanding of his view and criticism of the French revolution? Preferably something in more modern tongue or a summary if you know of any.]]>
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 00:38:01 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15091 http://curi.us/comments/show/15091
curi Open Discussion 2 (2019)
> Edmund Burke is considered one of the first modern conservatives and a critic of the French Revolution, particularly for his Reflections on the Revolution in France.

But he was a classical liberal. He was in the whig party. He was a reformer seeking progress a bit overly aggressively.]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:15:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15090 http://curi.us/comments/show/15090
Edmund Burke Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYUaGsUY8BQ]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:00:40 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15089 http://curi.us/comments/show/15089
FH quotes re lying curi Leftist Lying: The Issue Is Never the Issue
> “Why are you a good architect? Because you have certain standards of what is good, and they’re your own, and you stand by them. I want a good hotel, and I have certain standards of what is good, and they’re my own, and you’re the one who can give me what I want. And when I fight for you, I’m doing—on my side of it—just what you’re doing when you design a building. Do you think integrity is the monopoly of the artist? And what, incidentally, do you think integrity is? The ability not to pick a watch out of your neighbor’s pocket? No, it’s not as easy as that. If that were all, I’d say ninety-five percent of humanity were honest, upright men. Only, as you can see, they aren’t. Integrity is the ability to stand by an idea. That presupposes the ability to think. Thinking is something one doesn’t borrow or pawn. And yet, if I were asked to choose a symbol for humanity as we know it, I wouldn’t choose a cross nor an eagle nor a lion and unicorn. I’d choose three gilded balls.”


Three gilded balls symbolizes a pawn shop.

> “The worst thing about dishonest people is what they think of as honesty,” he said. “I know a woman who’s never held to one conviction for three days running, but when I told her she had no integrity, she got very tight-lipped and said her idea of integrity wasn’t mine; it seems she’d never stolen any money. Well, she’s one that’s in no danger from me whatever. I don’t hate her. I hate the impossible conception you love so passionately, Dominique.”]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:29:18 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15087 http://curi.us/comments/show/15087
curi Open Discussion 2 (2019) Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:04:49 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15086 http://curi.us/comments/show/15086 Alisa Discussion with "Critical Rationalist" Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:51:47 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15085 http://curi.us/comments/show/15085 Variance Math Problems curi Open Discussion 2 (2019)
And the same problem but replacing addition with multiplication, subtraction, division, exponentiation, modulo.

I took an interest in this because variance scales up hugely with a single multiplication.

I have elegant solutions for the first four, an inelegant solution for exponentiation (not awful and has some nice genericness), and I went through some examples to get a better understanding of what's going on with modulo but I didn't make a formula.]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:40:20 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15084 http://curi.us/comments/show/15084
Anonymous Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
he replied about it repeatedly. reading comp fail?]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:53:27 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15083 http://curi.us/comments/show/15083
Anonymous Discussion with "Critical Rationalist"
Curi, Why did you dodge the lab scenario question?]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:43:47 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15082 http://curi.us/comments/show/15082
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:16:36 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15081 http://curi.us/comments/show/15081 Anne B Second-handedness Examples
Now I disagree both with what I originally wrote and with what you wrote about why they used the word "popular".

I think there *is* an implication that you should want to play the game because it's popular. They wouldn't put in the word "popular" for no reason. But maybe they just mean that since lots of other people like the game, it might be a good game, so you might like it too. I don't think they're trying to get people to play the game so that the *people* will be popular or something, which would be second-handed.

So I retract what I said in #15075.

> Btw pointing out appeals to popularity in everyday life, a good philosopher it doesn't make.

I do think it's important to learn about how our values are influenced by the social world we live in. That's part of philosophy.

As to whether it's part of *good* philosophy, I don't think I know enough to say that. But it seems like a good thing for me to examine. I want to be more aware of how I am influenced by wanting other people to think well of me.]]>
Mon, 13 Jan 2020 07:31:31 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15080 http://curi.us/comments/show/15080
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples
Btw pointing out appeals to popularity in everyday life, a good philosopher it doesn't make.]]>
Sun, 12 Jan 2020 08:00:50 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15079 http://curi.us/comments/show/15079
Illiteracy exposed Anonymous [Excerpt] I was tired yesterday and my last post ha...
you clearly have not read any of the literature regarding addiction, nor depression.]]>
Sun, 12 Jan 2020 07:57:48 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15078 http://curi.us/comments/show/15078
Anne B [Excerpt] I was tired yesterday and my last post ha...
Or are you only saying that depression is governed by a large set of complex theories, as alcohol is?]]>
Sun, 12 Jan 2020 05:05:00 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15077 http://curi.us/comments/show/15077
Alisa Open Discussion 2 (2019)
https://www.tradelineinc.com/reports/2007-10/unprecedented-teamwork-repairs-collapsed-freeway-record-time :

> At first, reporters were astonished by Myers’ bid, just $867,075. Caltrans had estimated the cost of the project to be about $5.2 million. How on earth could Myers build the new ramp for less than a million? The steel itself would cost at least that much.

> Director Kempton explains, “The contract called for a work schedule of fifty days. However, for every day the project finished early, the contractor would earn a bonus of $200,000, with a cap of $5 million.”

> Myers confidently told the press he intended to earn every cent of the $5 million. So confident, in fact, that he began moving people and equipment into place even before the contract was awarded. His bid of $867,075 was simply the remainder of the price.

There's [an interesting video on the reconstruction](https://youtu.be/-TKjwblp1XI?t=610). The video has clips of Meyers, who looks and talks like one of the effective businessmen from Atlas Shrugged. Here's my transcript, starting from around 10m10s:

> C. C. Meyers (C. C. Meyers, Inc.): I come to work and there's a fax there from Stinger Steel out of Arizona. I don't know who Stinger Steel is, right? But it was very interesting. He says, "I want $3/pound for the steel and I want 25% of the bonus."

> Carl Douglas (President, Stinger Welding): "We had several contractors call us and laugh at us and say we were crazy and they weren't going to participate in paying us a bonus, they just wanted a hard dollar bid from us."

> Meyers: I've never had a proposal sent to me in my whole life like that. So I called the guy. "First of all, who the hell are you?"

> Douglas: Mr. Meyers asked me basically who we were and I believe he made one phone call and called me back within 3 or 4 minutes, says, "Hey look, we're gonna deal with you, let's go."

> Meyers: I said, "I know I can make that bonus. And your 25% of that -- I don't have a problem with that. I want this thing built in record time."]]>
Fri, 10 Jan 2020 20:22:55 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15076 http://curi.us/comments/show/15076
Anne B Second-handedness Examples
> [local] Library is hosting a demo of this very popular dice game

We are supposed to want to play the dice game because it's popular, not because it's a good game.]]>
Fri, 10 Jan 2020 11:54:39 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15075 http://curi.us/comments/show/15075
Arpaio Andy Dufresne Second-handedness Examples
Arpaio's career was built to a large extent on attempts to exploit second-handedness in others. He got played by a variant of the same game he spent his career running.

Arpaio's main innovation, which got him most of his fame, was in how he ran the county jail and especially the "tent city" he created for prisoners. He recognized, correctly IMO, that one of the problems in his county was criminals for whom going to jail was nbd, just part of the lifestyle and even in some circles an initiation badge of honor (cuz going to jail means you didn't flip and testify against somebody bigger in return for immunity).

So Arpaio did things primarily designed to lower the social status of criminals in jail. He made them wear pink clothing, including underwear. He made a big deal out of feeding them lower quality food than his dogs. He made them live outside in uncomfortably hot, dusty weather which made them perpetually dirty and stinky.

Part of this was an attempt to inflict direct suffering on the prisoners - which of course it did. But the main game he was playing was trying to lower prisoners' social status, make them feel bad about being in jail for second-handed reasons and make other second-handed people want to avoid jail more.

I don't know if Arpaio's jail policies were actually effective in deterring criminal behavior. I haven't looked into it and wouldn't trust media reports either way.]]>
Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:02:20 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15074 http://curi.us/comments/show/15074
curi Second-handedness Examples
How do people get fooled into doing Sacha Baron Cohen interviews where they make fools of themselves? They're second-handed:

> “They said, ‘we’re doing a feature for Showtime — the top 20 people in the United States.’ It looked pretty nice [that] I made the top people.”

and

> Arpaio was convinced his interviewer was immensely popular in Finland.

How did he make a fool of himself? E.g.:

> Cohen's character - who revealed he bought 43 guns in preparation for the “upcoming race war” - was told by Arpaio that Trump would be a fan of his ideas.

and

> [Arpaio said] he'd accept oral sex from Donald Trump.]]>
Fri, 10 Jan 2020 00:41:31 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15073 http://curi.us/comments/show/15073
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:55:41 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15072 http://curi.us/comments/show/15072 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples
Social, second-handed claim re what people's opinions of Trump are, and trying to evaluate a presidency by those opinions instead of by actions, accomplishments, policies, etc.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:51:12 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15071 http://curi.us/comments/show/15071
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:47:25 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15070 http://curi.us/comments/show/15070 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:33:57 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15069 http://curi.us/comments/show/15069 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples
Notice how he replies in terms of *who* said things as his way of evaluating them. That's also second-handed. He's (after factoring out the sarcasm) stating that he's rejecting an idea due to the source and the source's (negative) reputation (as represented by a negative nickname that he regards as socially legitimate).]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:21:09 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15068 http://curi.us/comments/show/15068
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:19:11 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15067 http://curi.us/comments/show/15067 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:15:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15066 http://curi.us/comments/show/15066 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:14:07 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15065 http://curi.us/comments/show/15065 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples
Notice the comment in terms of what other people's opinions are. More second-handedness. They can't turn it off well enough to briefly hide it to stop providing examples.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:09:34 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15064 http://curi.us/comments/show/15064
Perfect Second-handedness Examples
Elliot "Shit Tier Blogger" Temple is too god damn perfect.

And I don't even think ET is all bad either, the shit he plagiarizes from Deutsch is ofc going to be good. But god damn is he a terrible writer lmao.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:06:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15063 http://curi.us/comments/show/15063
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:58:41 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15062 http://curi.us/comments/show/15062 Dying Second-handedness Examples
"Shit Tier Blogger" It is perfect.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:54:46 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15061 http://curi.us/comments/show/15061
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:41:32 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15060 http://curi.us/comments/show/15060 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 Second-handedness Examples
> In reality, the blame is entirely on you because you can't explain yourself and you lost every single debate you had with SS, Kate, PP, TheRat and VSE. You are simply inadequate as a philosopher.

(assertion masterman)]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:40:52 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15059 http://curi.us/comments/show/15059
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:21:35 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15058 http://curi.us/comments/show/15058 curi Second-handedness Examples
Ambiguous whether "he" refers to Trump or Obama (bad thinkers have so much trouble communicating in basic ways), and viewing it in terms of embarrassment is second-handed.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:15:13 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15057 http://curi.us/comments/show/15057
Shit Tier Blogger Second-handedness Examples
https://www.reddit.com/r/badphilosophy/comments/ekwp6t/i_found_the_best_living_philosopher/]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 17:00:39 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15056 http://curi.us/comments/show/15056
curi Red Pill Comments
> [redpill] Why octuple text me? Obsessed much?

That's not a socially calibrated comment by me. It's too blatant. The way to social climb is to call attention to the low social status behavior in a subtle way, that way I put the other person down without being viewed as socially aggressive or "mean". But being subtle won't highlight what's going on for analysis and audience members will have a hard time following it explicitly. OTOH if I write a dry analysis like:

> Octuple texting is reactive behavior which, according to the law of least effort (because reacting is a type of effort), lowers social status.

That's also bad at communicating to the audience in some ways. It's subtle in its own way because it doesn't call out the social behavior in social terms (like obsession). Not connecting a social behavior to a social concept, using clear social words, is harder for people to understand and concretize. It's also longer while, at the same time, being too incomplete and abbreviated.

Strong, clear, blatant social comments have some communication advantages over intellectual analysis or playing the social game correctly.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 16:39:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15055 http://curi.us/comments/show/15055
curi Second-handedness Examples
It's second-handed to think it's too bad he's leaving a group because other people said they were glad he joined.

> Critical Rationalist: Some people define it as a gene.

His irrational evasion to triple down on a factual error was phrased in terms of what other people think and do.]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 16:27:28 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15054 http://curi.us/comments/show/15054
Justin Open Discussion 2 (2019)
Good vid thx 👍]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 15:42:05 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15053 http://curi.us/comments/show/15053
curi Open Discussion 2 (2019)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULePRxbXck8]]>
Thu, 09 Jan 2020 15:06:02 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15052 http://curi.us/comments/show/15052
curi Getting Caught Using PUA
https://illimitablemen.com/archives/]]>
Wed, 08 Jan 2020 22:23:02 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15051 http://curi.us/comments/show/15051
curi Getting Caught Using PUA
https://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/

about shit tests

https://illimitablemen.com/2017/05/26/critical-thinking-the-citation-needed-fallacy/

some epistemology stuff including good criticism of academia's social climbing]]>
Wed, 08 Jan 2020 21:38:24 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15050 http://curi.us/comments/show/15050
Video of the hardest part of Lost kingdom route GISTE Mario Odyssey Discussion
https://imgur.com/2YaK01D]]>
Wed, 08 Jan 2020 12:50:37 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15049 http://curi.us/comments/show/15049
Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Wed, 08 Jan 2020 08:42:02 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15048 http://curi.us/comments/show/15048 Anonymous Second-handedness Examples Wed, 08 Jan 2020 08:38:32 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15047 http://curi.us/comments/show/15047 Rand would be dissapointed Second-handedness Examples
If you could make 0 progress communicating with everyone, you'd still blame it on others (which you do). This has nothing to do with "second-handedness" (which is a retarded idea on its own, we stand on the shoulders of giant) and everything to do with the fact that you're an emotionally stunted control freak. You behave like a neglected 5 year old who never grew up.

You blame others for your failures.
In reality, the blame is entirely on you because you can't explain yourself and you lost every single debate you had with SS, Kate, PP, TheRat and VSE. You are simply inadequate as a philosopher.]]>
Wed, 08 Jan 2020 08:37:16 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15046 http://curi.us/comments/show/15046
curi Second-handedness Examples
> Curi strikes me as someone who everyone in the world could disagree with and he'd still think he was right

Yeah I judge by arguments about the issues, not by other people's opinions and how popular and high social status those opinions are.]]>
Tue, 07 Jan 2020 14:57:08 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15045 http://curi.us/comments/show/15045
Anonymous Open Discussion 2 (2019) Tue, 07 Jan 2020 14:50:41 +0000 http://curi.us/comments/show/15044 http://curi.us/comments/show/15044