============================================================== Guild: Fallible Ideas Channel: fi Topic: Public Philosophy Discussion | Logs may be posted online | http://fallibleideas.com Messages: 1,242 Range: 19-Aug-19 12:00 AM to 23-Aug-19 12:00 AM ============================================================== [19-Aug-19 05:19 AM] JustinBot 🦅🇺🇸#0000 Check out my new video, More Grammar! FI Grammar Discussion #17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRSyQgOmRTk {Embed} JustinCEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRSyQgOmRTk More Grammar! FI Grammar Discussion #17 I read some Elliot Temple and Anne B emails and analyze some sentences from Peikoff’s grammar course. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iRSyQgOmRTk/maxresdefault.jpg [19-Aug-19 05:19 AM] JustinCEO#3132 😄 [19-Aug-19 07:16 AM] JustinCEO#3132 So with deepfakes, internet memes will be able to involve making movie characters say something other than what's in the movie, rather than just superimposing text on a still image [19-Aug-19 08:13 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Clearly hate speech {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613027790199062622/image0.png [19-Aug-19 11:14 AM] curi bot#0000 New stream or video! #20 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GcWsPsuK7E {Embed} curi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GcWsPsuK7E #20 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://elliottemple.com/ https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4GcWsPsuK7E/hqdefault_live.jpg [19-Aug-19 11:16 AM] curi#0644 oh it's early [19-Aug-19 11:17 AM] curi#0644 i clicked make new stream as part of set up process but didn't go live [19-Aug-19 11:17 AM] curi#0644 will be streaming in mb 10min [19-Aug-19 11:18 AM] AnneB#8275 Okay. I'll try to watch it live this time. Usually I watch it afterwards. I even did the "create a channel" thing so I could chat if I want to. [19-Aug-19 03:23 PM] JustinCEO#3132 J-approved https://www.instacart.com/costco/products/32732-kirkland-signature-sausage-beef-lasagna-2-ct-2-ct {Embed} https://www.instacart.com/costco/products/32732-kirkland-signature-sausage-beef-lasagna-2-ct-2-ct Kirkland Signature Sausage & Beef Lasagna, 2 ct (2 ct) from Costco... Buy Kirkland Signature Sausage & Beef Lasagna, 2 ct (2 ct) from Costco online and have it delivered to your door in as fast as 1 hour. Your first delivery is free. Try it today! See terms. https://d2lnr5mha7bycj.cloudfront.net/product-image/file/large_0864a4f6-e418-4076-a236-e689f668ce60.jpeg [19-Aug-19 03:26 PM] evanoleary#3869 @alanforr I read the posts on your blog on tunnelling, but still don't understand how interference is responsible for some particles crossing the barrier, especially if some particles do end up with energy greater than the barrier potential, since that seems sufficient to explain why some particles cross the barrier. https://conjecturesandrefutations.com/2018/11/20/tunnelling-guess-3/ {Embed} conjecturesandrefutations https://conjecturesandrefutations.com/2018/11/20/tunnelling-guess-3/ Tunnelling guess 3 In a previous post I described a simulation of tunnelling I conducted to test a guess I made about quantum tunnelling. David Deutsch had guessed that some of the instances of a particle have energy… https://s0.wp.com/i/blank.jpg [19-Aug-19 05:27 PM] JustinCEO#3132 https://twitter.com/reasonisfun/status/1163089885533736960?s=20 [19-Aug-19 05:27 PM] JustinCEO#3132 https://twitter.com/reasonisfun/status/1162667825829466112?s=20 {Embed} Lulie (@reasonisfun) https://twitter.com/reasonisfun/status/1162667825829466112?s=20 https://t.co/usGtSY9I0d https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECKgOJ9X4AAPxGT.jpg:large Twitter [19-Aug-19 05:30 PM] JustinCEO#3132 This must be some of that great CR twitter community blog commenter was talking about [19-Aug-19 05:31 PM] JustinCEO#3132 What a horror show [19-Aug-19 06:04 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 You don't like memes ? [19-Aug-19 06:22 PM] JustinCEO#3132 memes are okay as a frivolous thing but mixing shitty memes and serious philosophy is bad [19-Aug-19 06:22 PM] JustinCEO#3132 Gives people the wrong impression [19-Aug-19 06:23 PM] JustinCEO#3132 That if they like some mistaken or vague memes on twitter they are fans of some philosophy [19-Aug-19 06:23 PM] curi#0644 The imagery is vague but plays on BoI contradicting views. [19-Aug-19 06:23 PM] curi#0644 The last text is misleading [19-Aug-19 06:25 PM] curi#0644 What’s to like about it? [19-Aug-19 06:26 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 What's misleading? [19-Aug-19 06:26 PM] curi#0644 Ppl like that it being a meme distracts from it being dumb. Gives excuse [19-Aug-19 06:26 PM] curi#0644 Like the “I was joking” standard excuse {Reactions} 👍 (2) [19-Aug-19 06:26 PM] JustinCEO#3132 "I was just joking/it was just a meme man" [19-Aug-19 06:27 PM] JustinCEO#3132 Heh [19-Aug-19 06:28 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Well I don't think people should expect serious discussion on Twitter. But whats misleading though? Isnt that the idea of fallibility? always wrong thats okay, always at the beginning of infinite knowledge? [19-Aug-19 06:29 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613182737351835688/image0.png [19-Aug-19 06:29 PM] curi#0644 She wrote it misleadingly on purpose. Her idea was that contradicting herself on last line would overrule prior statements. [19-Aug-19 06:30 PM] curi#0644 And that the surprise ending is better than clarity [19-Aug-19 06:33 PM] JustinCEO#3132 https://conjecturesandrefutations.com/2019/03/16/lulie-tanett-vs-critical-rationalism/ {Embed} conjecturesandrefutations https://conjecturesandrefutations.com/2019/03/16/lulie-tanett-vs-critical-rationalism/ Lulie Tanett vs Critical Rationalism Lulie Tanett is posting false ideas about critical rationalism. In this tweet, she shows a set of slides about critical rationalism she posted on Instagram: they all include serious errors. I’m goi… https://s0.wp.com/i/blank.jpg [19-Aug-19 06:34 PM] JustinCEO#3132 LT should work on her understanding of ideas rather than meme [19-Aug-19 06:34 PM] JustinCEO#3132 She doesn't want to though [19-Aug-19 06:36 PM] JustinCEO#3132 Memes first, fuck reason/discussion/criticism [19-Aug-19 06:39 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 🤷 [19-Aug-19 06:39 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Live and let live is my motto! [19-Aug-19 06:42 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 lot of bad stuff on Twitter and insta gram. ANti vaxers, flat earthers. etc.. [19-Aug-19 06:42 PM] JustinCEO#3132 If LT just wanted to say fuck philosophy and go party or whatever that would be bad but it's her life. That's not what she's doing though [19-Aug-19 06:43 PM] JustinCEO#3132 She's harming CR community by spreading false stuff and creating the illusion of a fake community [19-Aug-19 06:44 PM] JustinCEO#3132 The other dumb ppl on twitter are bad too [19-Aug-19 06:44 PM] JustinCEO#3132 LT is of particular interest to us cuz she used to be a part of real CR community and is doing direct harm to it now [19-Aug-19 06:49 PM] curi#0644 Most bad stuff doesn’t try to associate with eg BoI so less notable to us [19-Aug-19 08:53 PM] evanoleary#3869 Does Lulie's post contradict BoI? How is it dumb? [19-Aug-19 08:56 PM] evanoleary#3869 Also, this video helped me understand how quantum tunneling could be because of interference bc interference inside the barrier decreases the absolute value of amplitude https://youtu.be/RF7dDt3tVmI {Embed} Physics Videos by Eugene Khutoryansky https://youtu.be/RF7dDt3tVmI Quantum Tunneling Quantum tunneling explained with 3D simulations of Schrodinger’s equation for quantum wave functions. My Patreon page is at https://www.patreon.com/EugeneK https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RF7dDt3tVmI/maxresdefault.jpg [19-Aug-19 08:57 PM] curi#0644 > It was intended to read as faux-gloomy for all the lines in the last paragraph, except the last one [19-Aug-19 08:57 PM] curi#0644 it said false, gloomy stuff. [19-Aug-19 08:57 PM] curi#0644 then it ended by contradicting itself or making it sound like BoI is gloomy [19-Aug-19 08:59 PM] curi#0644 it's misleading b/c ppl will read it and think she believes the lines prior to last are true [19-Aug-19 09:00 PM] besetro#9825 If I didn't know anything about CR, seeing that text would turn me away from CR. For ppl that don't know about BoI, yet care about the truth, ideas, trying to do things right, I think it's a big turn off. [19-Aug-19 09:00 PM] evanoleary#3869 But why wasnt this tweet right? https://twitter.com/DavidDeutschOxf/status/534988295005306880?s=19 Deutsch says in a *later* tweet he's mystified {Embed} David Deutsch (@DavidDeutschOxf) https://twitter.com/DavidDeutschOxf/status/534988295005306880?s=19 .@david_hurn @markprobst Mountaineering not tunnelling: true. They go over the top. But it's not a selection effect. It's interference. Twitter [19-Aug-19 09:02 PM] curi#0644 btw meanwhile brett being mean to ppl (again). he's a teacher... [19-Aug-19 09:02 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613221257223077888/unknown.png [19-Aug-19 09:02 PM] curi#0644 that's in the LT replies [19-Aug-19 09:02 PM] evanoleary#3869 If they understand the meme progresses to better and better ideas as it goes down won't they understand that she thinks 4th refutes first 3? [19-Aug-19 09:02 PM] curi#0644 i don't know what you're talking about [19-Aug-19 09:03 PM] curi#0644 she is saying all lines in the 4th, other than the last, are false [19-Aug-19 09:03 PM] curi#0644 or faux-gloomy or whatever [19-Aug-19 09:03 PM] curi#0644 they make it sound like skepticism is true. like we can't have knowledge. etc. [19-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 which is a common misconception of what CR says. awful thing to be confusing about. [19-Aug-19 09:04 PM] besetro#9825 My first impression after seeing it was "No wonder Oists think CR ppl are skeptics." [19-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 😦 [19-Aug-19 09:05 PM] evanoleary#3869 What "last" line "in the 4th" is she not saying is false? [19-Aug-19 09:05 PM] curi#0644 that we're at the BoI [19-Aug-19 09:05 PM] curi#0644 btw it's very easy to interpret being at BoI to be gloomy too. like that it means we can't get very far. [19-Aug-19 09:06 PM] curi#0644 or you can interpret it as saying being at BoI is causing the bad things above (cuz it says basically "bad stuff b/c BoI") [19-Aug-19 09:07 PM] curi#0644 she admits she was intentionally writing a misleading anti-fallibilist rhetoric in order to have a surprise ending. but the ending was super unclear. [19-Aug-19 09:07 PM] evanoleary#3869 She says all our ideas are false which implies "we're at the BoI" is false [19-Aug-19 09:08 PM] curi#0644 yeah that's confusing too [19-Aug-19 09:08 PM] evanoleary#3869 So she doesn't not say the last line in the 4th is false [19-Aug-19 09:09 PM] evanoleary#3869 What's confusing about it? [19-Aug-19 09:10 PM] curi#0644 i don't understand. i just explained several things and also you were confused (and still are?). [19-Aug-19 09:10 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I guess technically we could be wrong about being at the beginning of Infinity [19-Aug-19 09:10 PM] curi#0644 viewing fallibility as a mere technicality to admit b/c forced is an anti-CR attitude. [19-Aug-19 09:12 PM] evanoleary#3869 I agree [19-Aug-19 09:12 PM] evanoleary#3869 What's confusing about her last line in the 4th box? [19-Aug-19 09:12 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I fail to see it, what do you mean? [19-Aug-19 09:13 PM] curi#0644 are you trying to learn CR? [19-Aug-19 09:13 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Yes [19-Aug-19 09:13 PM] curi#0644 what have you done and are you doing? [19-Aug-19 09:13 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 give me a min doorbell [19-Aug-19 09:14 PM] curi#0644 @evan it doesn't say what being at BoI means for the previous text, or means in general. [19-Aug-19 09:14 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Any good book recommendations? [19-Aug-19 09:14 PM] curi#0644 http://fallibleideas.com/books {Embed} http://fallibleideas.com/books Fallible Ideas – Books Philosophy articles by Elliot Temple http://curi.us/files/logo.jpg [19-Aug-19 09:14 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I've read those [19-Aug-19 09:15 PM] curi#0644 all? [19-Aug-19 09:15 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Umm let me see [19-Aug-19 09:15 PM] curi#0644 including other books by the same authors? in lots of cases i just didn't list them all but they have tons more good stuff. [19-Aug-19 09:15 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Not poppers second best tier [19-Aug-19 09:16 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Or szasz [19-Aug-19 09:16 PM] curi#0644 you read the first tier? did it convince you that induction is wrong, contrary to what Oists think? [19-Aug-19 09:16 PM] curi#0644 why no discussions about it? [19-Aug-19 09:17 PM] evanoleary#3869 I guess it could be improved by deleting the last 2 lines [19-Aug-19 09:17 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I read Maghees Popper, working on BOI. Parts of OSE. [19-Aug-19 09:17 PM] Mingmecha#9318 It did when I read DD I mentioned it awhile ago [19-Aug-19 09:17 PM] curi#0644 @evan deleting the last 2 lines would still leave it making it sound like we can't have knowledge. [19-Aug-19 09:17 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Not here I think. On stream I didn't think to have a discussion about it on here [19-Aug-19 09:17 PM] evanoleary#3869 I think the meme it's hard to interpret as ending pessimistically ever. The right boxes get more visually attractive [19-Aug-19 09:18 PM] curi#0644 @Mingmecha why don't you use the FI or curiosity forums? [19-Aug-19 09:18 PM] curi#0644 @evanoleary if someone reads the message as "not being able to have knowledge is good" b/c of the pictures, that's still confusing and bad. [19-Aug-19 09:18 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I don't really have time to and I don't really have any questions or conflictions rn [19-Aug-19 09:19 PM] curi#0644 i'm sure you'd have disagreements with ppl and other stuff would come up if you discussed. [19-Aug-19 09:20 PM] curi#0644 @cat do you have questions or disagreements with BoI? if not, a good thing to do is try to say the main ideas yourself and get feedback on your thinking. [19-Aug-19 09:20 PM] curi#0644 same for @Mingmecha [19-Aug-19 09:20 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Perhaps but like I said I have time for discord and streams because it's on my phone and I can check up on it [19-Aug-19 09:20 PM] evanoleary#3869 Maybe 3rd and 4th boxes should be switched [19-Aug-19 09:20 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Hello Party people. We active tonight 😮 [19-Aug-19 09:21 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @TheRatWay yeah welcome [19-Aug-19 09:21 PM] curi#0644 you can post to Curiosity from phone and check on it on your own schedule. [19-Aug-19 09:22 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I should reread popper first it's been a long time I read him when I was learning about a lot of famous philosophers and ran into ayn rand. [19-Aug-19 09:22 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I don't have any disagreements with BOI so far. [19-Aug-19 09:22 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Then I'll post my ideas and see what people say [19-Aug-19 09:22 PM] curi#0644 ok cool [19-Aug-19 09:22 PM] curi#0644 did you find any philosophers you thought were good that i don't recommend? [19-Aug-19 09:22 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I'll read the high teir popper [19-Aug-19 09:23 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Spinoza [19-Aug-19 09:23 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Spinoza [19-Aug-19 09:23 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I like some of peikoffs work [19-Aug-19 09:24 PM] curi#0644 i do recommend some Peikoff. [19-Aug-19 09:24 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Rand is like a Mix of Kant and Nietszche right ? Self made will to power, all reason. Very polemic etc...? [19-Aug-19 09:24 PM] Mingmecha#9318 And I like that one guy who wrote the Oist book on music I don't remember his name [19-Aug-19 09:24 PM] curi#0644 what's spinoza's best idea that i wouldn't know from elsewhere? [19-Aug-19 09:25 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @Felix The Cat rand would be laughing if she was compared to Kant lol [19-Aug-19 09:25 PM] curi#0644 @cat Rand is an arch enemy of Kant. and i've never seen any secondary source that would say what you said. [19-Aug-19 09:25 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Kant was often misunderstood and was claimed by the romantics as one of them, but he never was and protested until he died and they took him anyway [19-Aug-19 09:26 PM] Mingmecha#9318 This was very helpful and informative when I was getting into philosophy long time ago Highly recommend this book {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613227342613184522/JPEG_20190819_212600.jpg [19-Aug-19 09:26 PM] curi#0644 can't see title [19-Aug-19 09:26 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Wow. Bad quality [19-Aug-19 09:26 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 is that Russell's ? [19-Aug-19 09:27 PM] Mingmecha#9318 No [19-Aug-19 09:27 PM] Mingmecha#9318 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613227611849621505/JPEG_20190819_212732.jpg [19-Aug-19 09:28 PM] curi#0644 is that a Peikoff recommendation? [19-Aug-19 09:28 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I read a lot of Erich fromm long time ago idk if you've ever critiqued him but he's bad [19-Aug-19 09:29 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I don't know if he recommended it [19-Aug-19 09:29 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I just found it in a old bookstore [19-Aug-19 09:29 PM] curi#0644 can't find ebook of that book 😦 [19-Aug-19 09:29 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Thats why I go to bookstores sometimes you find very rare stuff [19-Aug-19 09:30 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I live in Phoenix and there's an Oist bookstore owner here and he recommended it me lots of philosophy books [19-Aug-19 09:30 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Some are hard to find in ebooks [19-Aug-19 09:30 PM] Mingmecha#9318 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613228428057116673/JPEG_20190819_213045.jpg [19-Aug-19 09:30 PM] curi#0644 > Benjamin Apthorp Gould Fuller (March 9, 1879, Brookline, Massachusetts - March 15, 1956, Taxco, Mexico) was a philosopher, author of A History of Philosophy, and president of the American Philosophical Association. [19-Aug-19 09:31 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Most people who have called themselves Randians or objectivists I've come across have been very rude. Granted, prior to this Discord I've met like 3 or 4. I don't know if its just coincidence, or if her philosophy calls for being rude. [19-Aug-19 09:31 PM] Mingmecha#9318 This one is very interesting have you read it curi [19-Aug-19 09:31 PM] curi#0644 eitehr he's awful or the American Philosophical Association was really different back then. [19-Aug-19 09:32 PM] Mingmecha#9318 It's about concepts and cognitive science [19-Aug-19 09:32 PM] Mingmecha#9318 It's very difficult to read but I'm sure you guys are above average anyway [19-Aug-19 09:32 PM] curi#0644 i don't like reading cog sci stuff, it's all awful and non-Popperian [19-Aug-19 09:33 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Why is it awful [19-Aug-19 09:33 PM] curi#0644 it's like e.g. https://curi.us/2135-bad-sam-harris-brain-scanning-research-paper {Embed} https://curi.us/2135-bad-sam-harris-brain-scanning-research-paper Bad Sam Harris Brain Scanning Research Paper This post criticizes The Neural Correlates of Religious and Nonreligious Belief by Sam Harris , Jonas T. Kaplan , Ashley Curiel, Susan Y. Bookheimer, Marco Iacoboni, Mark S. Cohen in 2009. I wrote this http://curi.us/files/logo.jpg [19-Aug-19 09:33 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Curi thinks we're blank slates and cog sci contradicts that would be my guess [19-Aug-19 09:33 PM] curi#0644 or a bunch of correlations [19-Aug-19 09:34 PM] curi#0644 @cat Objectivists do not call themselves Randians. [19-Aug-19 09:34 PM] curi#0644 the cog sci field basically doesn't know much but thinks they know a lot [19-Aug-19 09:35 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Curi could you for your next stream talk about cognitive science and I'll play devils advocate [19-Aug-19 09:35 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613229663963054080/unknown.png [19-Aug-19 09:35 PM] curi#0644 that's so far from cog sci [19-Aug-19 09:35 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613229704715042834/unknown.png [19-Aug-19 09:36 PM] curi#0644 oh god they included wittgenstein [19-Aug-19 09:36 PM] curi#0644 (also not cog sci) [19-Aug-19 09:36 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Have you read it? [19-Aug-19 09:36 PM] curi#0644 read what? [19-Aug-19 09:36 PM] Mingmecha#9318 The concepts book or are you just looking at the chapters [19-Aug-19 09:37 PM] curi#0644 looking [19-Aug-19 09:37 PM] curi#0644 no ebook on amazon [19-Aug-19 09:37 PM] curi#0644 just preview [19-Aug-19 09:37 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Curi I don't like Philosophy in the form of fiction so I would't read Rands Atlas and fountain books. Would you recommend starting with the virtue of selfishness or understanding objectivism as a better intro/ overview [19-Aug-19 09:37 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I'm not familiar with Wittgenstein to much [19-Aug-19 09:37 PM] curi#0644 he's so bad that i don't think any reasonable ppl like him [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @Felix The Cat you don't like fiction? [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] curi#0644 in addition to the bad writing, wittgenstein also threatened Popper with violence and beat school children. [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I like Sci Fi, but mostly no [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @Felix The Cat philosophy who needs it is best start imo [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] curi#0644 @cat your past experience with fiction books are irrelevant to Rand's books. [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Atlas and fountainhead will be the only ones you like if you do [19-Aug-19 09:38 PM] curi#0644 her books are different [19-Aug-19 09:39 PM] curi#0644 @cat i guess i'd recommend starting with For The New Intellectual, that's its purpose [19-Aug-19 09:43 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 oh wow. It is part of the "Books I'd Rather Die Than Read" List on goodreads. O.O Aw that's mean. Why even create such a thing. Don't like people who kink shame [19-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 what does that have to do with kink? [19-Aug-19 09:44 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 oh its a figure of speech [19-Aug-19 09:45 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 not literally a kink [19-Aug-19 09:45 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 like making fun of someone for liking Nickelback [19-Aug-19 09:47 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Felix you're drunk aren't you [19-Aug-19 09:47 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Not tonight good sir. [19-Aug-19 09:48 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @Felix The Cat read the fountainhead rn [19-Aug-19 09:49 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Please don't look up summerized videos of books or something like that [19-Aug-19 09:49 PM] Mingmecha#9318 It's worth it [19-Aug-19 09:49 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Changed my life [19-Aug-19 09:49 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 how so? [19-Aug-19 09:50 PM] curi#0644 i don't think he'll get FH [19-Aug-19 09:51 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 is it really difficult to read like Post Modernist books? Or why wouldn't I get it. [19-Aug-19 09:51 PM] curi#0644 no it's easy reading [19-Aug-19 09:52 PM] curi#0644 you are unserious and are biased against those kinds of ideas. [19-Aug-19 09:52 PM] curi#0644 you don't already have the right attitudes to life and i don't think you'll pick them up from reading the book. [19-Aug-19 09:52 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I like to think of myself as easy going yeah [19-Aug-19 09:53 PM] curi#0644 it's not a step by step guide. [19-Aug-19 09:53 PM] curi#0644 you have to take initiative to figure out what it's about, and be effective at that. [19-Aug-19 09:53 PM] curi#0644 you don't know how. [19-Aug-19 09:54 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 but not really biased. I don't judge. Just don't enjoy fiction, I can read The new intellectual if you think its better than virtue or peikoff's [19-Aug-19 09:54 PM] curi#0644 i'm not recommending Rand to you. i think you should try to discuss Popper/DD/my stuff. [19-Aug-19 09:55 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Nothing wrong with Popper 🙂 [19-Aug-19 09:55 PM] curi#0644 https://www.amazon.com/history-philosophy-B-Fuller/dp/B0006AU4G4/ [19-Aug-19 09:55 PM] curi#0644 god this book has no info [19-Aug-19 09:56 PM] curi#0644 not even page count. [19-Aug-19 09:56 PM] curi#0644 so i won't even be able to create a correct order to have it scanned [19-Aug-19 09:58 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 @Mingmecha How did FountainHead change your life? If you don't mind me asking. I love some good transformation stories. [19-Aug-19 10:01 PM] TheRatWay#9334 >>> you are unserious and are biased against those kinds of ideas. you don't already have the right attitudes to life and i don't think you'll pick them up from reading the book. you have to take initiative to figure out what it's about, and be effective at that. you don't know how. [19-Aug-19 10:01 PM] TheRatWay#9334 How did you come to those conclusions about him [19-Aug-19 10:02 PM] curi#0644 he doesn't want, and won't like, full analysis of his discord messages. but he won't want to say that either. nevertheless, that's my judgment. [19-Aug-19 10:03 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Knock yourself out. I don't mind. I am curious. [19-Aug-19 10:03 PM] curi#0644 as predicted. [19-Aug-19 10:03 PM] TheRatWay#9334 😦 [19-Aug-19 10:03 PM] curi#0644 Taggart could not understand the transition from the laughter to the sudden tone of Dagny’s voice; the voice was cold and harsh: “Drop it, Jim. I know everything you’re going to say. Nobody’s ever used it before. Nobody approves of Rearden Metal. Nobody’s interested in it. Nobody wants it. Still, our rails are going to be made of Rearden Metal.” “But . . .” said Taggart, “but . . . but nobody’s ever used it before!” [19-Aug-19 10:04 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Curi do you need the page count on the book chapters ect.? [19-Aug-19 10:04 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @curi [19-Aug-19 10:04 PM] curi#0644 you need to enter page count on dollar scan orders AFAIK [19-Aug-19 10:04 PM] curi#0644 cuz the price depends on it [19-Aug-19 10:06 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 You predicted that I didn't want it, then when I said sure I want it, you said "as predicted." Wut, is this some sort of I am smart I reverersed psyched your ass? If so, it worked! [19-Aug-19 10:06 PM] curi#0644 @TheRatWay if he really wanted to know he would have asked me himself already. [19-Aug-19 10:06 PM] curi#0644 also his latest comment shows a poor grasp of logic or reading. [19-Aug-19 10:07 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Guess some blank slates are better than others. 🤷 [19-Aug-19 10:08 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @Felix The Cat it protrayed a man higher then anything ive ever seen before that the word heor was meaningless to me. It was the only true protrayls of the ideal man in action and high respect for intelligence and its fuction. Also I'm an artist myself and love how it showed what motivated Roark (the protagonist) as a creative thinker. [19-Aug-19 10:08 PM] Mingmecha#9318 The ending made me cry of how amazing it was [19-Aug-19 10:09 PM] Mingmecha#9318 It showed me that it was possible everything I knew was right really was right and moral [19-Aug-19 10:10 PM] curi#0644 for cat, if he got it, it would show him that he needs to change massively, rather than reaffirming his values. [19-Aug-19 10:10 PM] Mingmecha#9318 I want to live in a world with Roarks [19-Aug-19 10:10 PM] curi#0644 it'd be a different sort of experience [19-Aug-19 10:10 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I dread to meet the person who doesn't think they need massive changes. But thank you for sharing Mingmecha. [19-Aug-19 10:11 PM] curi#0644 he's insulting me again. he doesn't want my analysis. [19-Aug-19 10:11 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Curi I gotta say, I don't understand the hostility toward Cat. What happened? [19-Aug-19 10:12 PM] curi#0644 well did you pay attention to where he said "You predicted that I didn't want it, then when I said sure I want it, you said "as predicted." Wut, is this some sort of I am smart I reverersed psyched your ass? If so, it worked!" ? [19-Aug-19 10:12 PM] curi#0644 or any other specific interactions? [19-Aug-19 10:12 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @Felix The Cat it's role in my life cannot be understated enough mostly rand as a whole. Compared to other knowledge I've acquired its been the most important [19-Aug-19 10:13 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 This is good. There is a lot of negativity in this world and not many sources of affirmation, inspiration and comfort. Glad you found yours. [19-Aug-19 10:19 PM] curi#0644 i also don't think i was hostile. i don't think forming judgments, including critical ones, is a hostile act. but i do think cat expressed hostility towards me. [19-Aug-19 10:19 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 > he's insulting me again. And that was not an insult Curi, that was embracing Fallibility. I don't think you have shown how you think you know about me from a few lines on discord. Sounds to me like someone is extrapolating from repeated observations :O. [19-Aug-19 10:20 PM] curi#0644 that's 3 insults in a row. [19-Aug-19 10:28 PM] curi#0644 rat can you engage or disengage instead of leaving it ambiguous? you asked questions and raised issues but aren't pursuing them. [19-Aug-19 10:28 PM] Mingmecha#9318 😟 [19-Aug-19 10:30 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I am just confused at how this started. Was hoping you 2 could get along. I've known Cat for a while he's not the things you're describing. I am grateful for your help with CR. I am not fond of conflict. [19-Aug-19 10:30 PM] curi#0644 i tried to respond to you about that and you did not reply. [19-Aug-19 10:30 PM] curi#0644 do you want to discuss it or not? [19-Aug-19 10:32 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Sure I'd like a friendly discussion so we can maybe not insult each other, Cat you wanna try to reconcile? Or maybe do it in private so its easier? Idk [19-Aug-19 10:33 PM] curi#0644 i don't believe i insulted anyone, and i asked you a question which you have not replied to. [19-Aug-19 10:33 PM] TheRatWay#9334 oh sorry Could you repeat it [19-Aug-19 10:33 PM] curi#0644 TheRatWayToday at 10:11 PM Curi I gotta say, I don't understand the hostility toward Cat. What happened? curiToday at 10:12 PM well did you pay attention to where he said "You predicted that I didn't want it, then when I said sure I want it, you said "as predicted." Wut, is this some sort of I am smart I reverersed psyched your ass? If so, it worked!" ? or any other specific interactions? [19-Aug-19 10:34 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Yes I noticed hostility from him too. I am just confused at how it even started. [19-Aug-19 10:34 PM] curi#0644 do you see the misreading in his comment? [19-Aug-19 10:36 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I feel like at some point he said something that made you say "He wouldn't get FH" and then it all went downhill from there. So you clearly didn't like something he said before that, maybe? [19-Aug-19 10:36 PM] curi#0644 i'm trying to discuss a specific, individual issue, in order to explain things step by step, but you aren't engaging with me. [19-Aug-19 10:39 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I am trying to. Do you not think that starting from what triggered it is useful? Ok so he was uncharitable with the sneer about reverse psychology. [19-Aug-19 10:39 PM] curi#0644 he was trying to say i made an incorrect prediction. right? [19-Aug-19 10:39 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Yes [19-Aug-19 10:39 PM] curi#0644 and he was confused by me saying my prediction was correct. [19-Aug-19 10:39 PM] curi#0644 yes? [19-Aug-19 10:41 PM] TheRatWay#9334 um. Idk if confused. but he thinks you were incorrect. But I don't see how this helps us with what triggered this whole thing [19-Aug-19 10:41 PM] curi#0644 my prediction was correct. right? [19-Aug-19 10:41 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 No. [19-Aug-19 10:42 PM] TheRatWay#9334 You predicted that he didn't want you to go through his discord messages and tell him why you judged him. [19-Aug-19 10:43 PM] TheRatWay#9334 and he said go for it or something like that [19-Aug-19 10:43 PM] curi#0644 do you know what i said immediately after that? [19-Aug-19 10:43 PM] TheRatWay#9334 sec [19-Aug-19 10:43 PM] TheRatWay#9334 He won't say that either [19-Aug-19 10:44 PM] curi#0644 right. so in short i said he will deny it, then he denied it. right? [19-Aug-19 10:45 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I am perfectly willing to grant that but I don't understand how we got to that spot in the first place. Seems like you disliked something he said prior to the He won't get FH. [19-Aug-19 10:45 PM] curi#0644 so why does he think my prediction was incorrect when i nailed what would happen? [19-Aug-19 10:46 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Because anyone can do that. I predict you think positive things about me, but you won't say that. Instead you will say mean things 🙂 [19-Aug-19 10:46 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 No I am the infallible Curi too! [19-Aug-19 10:46 PM] curi#0644 cat, can you stop trying to disrupt our discussion? [19-Aug-19 10:47 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Sure thing. Continue with your psycho analysis of The Good old cat. Night. [19-Aug-19 10:47 PM] curi#0644 (maybe you can see, rat, how badly he's taking even this very minimal, initial analysis of one thing he said) [19-Aug-19 10:48 PM] TheRatWay#9334 😦 I feel like we're working down stream from the cause [19-Aug-19 10:49 PM] Hopenager#1182 Curi, it seems like you just said something that he would obviously disagree with, then predicted he would disagree. What was the point of the prediction, and what does it show? [19-Aug-19 10:49 PM] curi#0644 i don't know why people think it will work to jump ahead to complex conclusions while not analyzing or understanding the info that goes into them. [19-Aug-19 10:50 PM] curi#0644 @Hopenager i was answering a question. i didn't claim it was an impressive prediction. that's not what i'm talking about. [19-Aug-19 10:50 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Can we agree that something he said made you say "He won't get FH." You then labelled him a lot of things and I just don't get why. [19-Aug-19 10:51 PM] curi#0644 rat, i can't tell you about his large, complicated mistakes when i'm not able to point out one especially clear one to you. [19-Aug-19 10:53 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Try? I feel like at that point he was probably already hostile and not ready to have a good faith discussion. Something happened before we got there. [19-Aug-19 10:53 PM] Hopenager#1182 You said "as predicted" and then followed up with a quote imlplying he was easily predictable and that this mattered for some reason. What was the reason? I don't understand why you chose to say "as predicted" or copy that quote, it seemed like a completely trivial and pointless prediction [19-Aug-19 10:54 PM] curi#0644 rat i have been trying to give you an explanation but you keep trying to change the topic before it gets anywhere. [19-Aug-19 10:54 PM] curi#0644 @Hopenager do you agree with me that the stuff you're asking about is a separate topic than the current conversation? [19-Aug-19 10:55 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yes I agree, feel free to continue with Rat for now and respond to my comments whenever you like. [19-Aug-19 10:56 PM] curi#0644 @Hopenager re as predicted, i thought his fitting into an expected model, despite me just having stated it openly, was an initial indication that my model was reasonable. enough to be worth mentioning. [19-Aug-19 10:56 PM] TheRatWay#9334 > so why does he think my prediction was incorrect when i nailed what would happen? Because he misunderstood your prediction is my best guess. Or he wanted to know why you judged him. [19-Aug-19 10:56 PM] curi#0644 right so he made a mistake. apparently a reading error. something like that? [19-Aug-19 10:57 PM] TheRatWay#9334 or he really did want to know why you judged him. So you were wrong that he won't say it, and he really did want to know and there is no other way to express it then asking you to "go for it" [19-Aug-19 10:58 PM] curi#0644 your "or" is a logic error. that's not an alternative. he could really want to know it and also have made that reading error. they are separate matters. [19-Aug-19 10:59 PM] TheRatWay#9334 well why not. If your prediction "He doesn't want to know but won't say it" Would him genuinely wanting to know not make both those things wrong? [19-Aug-19 11:00 PM] curi#0644 so you don't think he misunderstood me or made a reading or logic error? [19-Aug-19 11:01 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I don't think I can know this. He either made a reading error or genuinely wanted to know. Or wanted to know and didn't understand what you said either but arrived there by accident. Least likely the last one. [19-Aug-19 11:01 PM] curi#0644 if you're unable to judge a case like this, you also wouldn't be able to make the other judgments i made using the information i had. you won't understand them. [19-Aug-19 11:02 PM] TheRatWay#9334 how can you possibly know what he genuinely wants from someone stating that they want something. [19-Aug-19 11:03 PM] curi#0644 i don't know it from that statement. that statement was made *after* i said i knew it. [19-Aug-19 11:04 PM] TheRatWay#9334 The order was. You predicted he doesn't want to know and won't say. He said I do want to know. You said as predicted. [19-Aug-19 11:05 PM] TheRatWay#9334 You said as predicted after he said what he wanted. What am I missing here? [19-Aug-19 11:05 PM] curi#0644 you seem lost [19-Aug-19 11:05 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Indeed I am [19-Aug-19 11:08 PM] curi#0644 being able to easily follow stuff like this is part of the skillset of a philosopher. since you can't do it, you can't expect to understand full explanations of things you ask about it. [19-Aug-19 11:08 PM] curi#0644 if you will accept that context, i could give you some brief summary of some high level issues. [19-Aug-19 11:09 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Well I wasn't able to follow this stuff as you said, so how can I say otherwise. [19-Aug-19 11:09 PM] curi#0644 that sounds like you don't want to. [19-Aug-19 11:09 PM] TheRatWay#9334 quit the oppossite [19-Aug-19 11:09 PM] TheRatWay#9334 quite* [19-Aug-19 11:10 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I do want to be able to follow it. [19-Aug-19 11:10 PM] curi#0644 i meant don't want to accept the context. [19-Aug-19 11:11 PM] TheRatWay#9334 It is a bit saddening that I can't follow a simple explanation. But I do accept it. [19-Aug-19 11:11 PM] curi#0644 ~everyone can't, if that's any consolation [19-Aug-19 11:12 PM] curi#0644 if i didn't think a right wing person would like a marxist book – if i thought it wouldn't click for him – that doesn't mean i dislike him. it means the book is a totally different kind of thing than what he understands. [19-Aug-19 11:13 PM] curi#0644 cat is not similar to Howard Roark, the protagonist of FH. ming went into that book already being similar to Roark. [19-Aug-19 11:15 PM] curi#0644 cat was offended by my opinions, but was not interested in understanding them better. he e.g. didn't ask questions. he showed his disinterest by his actions. and he started repeatedly insulting me. [19-Aug-19 11:16 PM] curi#0644 there were a lot of other indications but they're hard to pick up on and explain, and also some of them are too offensive. [19-Aug-19 11:18 PM] curi#0644 he further demonstrated his disinterest in critical analysis by trying to be disruptive when i was talking with you, rather than acting in an appreciative manner. [19-Aug-19 11:18 PM] curi#0644 the basic thing that offended him was that i formed some negative judgments. that also shows his lack of receptiveness to critical analysis. [19-Aug-19 11:19 PM] curi#0644 he regarded my conclusions as being like attacks, and he tried to fight back. his fighting back was low skill and used mainstream social climbing tactics. [19-Aug-19 11:20 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Could you tell me more how you came to the conclusion that he's not like the Protagonist from FH? [19-Aug-19 11:20 PM] alanforr#8510 @evanoleary Some particles with lower energy than the barrier end up in and beyond the barrier. So any explanation that relies solely on the energy of the tunneling instances being greater than the barrier energy is wrong. {Reactions} 👌 [19-Aug-19 11:20 PM] curi#0644 uhh. ~all his messages are different than what Roark would say. [19-Aug-19 11:20 PM] curi#0644 idk how to explain that b/c you aren't familiar with Roark, right? [19-Aug-19 11:21 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Yeah you're right I am not [19-Aug-19 11:21 PM] curi#0644 you are also dissimilar to Roark. most ppl are. [19-Aug-19 11:22 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I want to ask how but I don't know how Roark is. [19-Aug-19 11:22 PM] curi#0644 a common reaction ppl have is thinking that Roark is unrealistic and that *no one* is similar to him. [19-Aug-19 11:22 PM] curi#0644 or even *could* be. [19-Aug-19 11:26 PM] TheRatWay#9334 and you got all of that from a few short exchanges. That's unbelievable, I mean rather believable. Let me put it in terms I am familiar with. When you get to a high enough level in a game like LOL, you can tell how good the other player is by the slightest of movements of their characters. I imagine this is what happened here. Or maybe I am off base. [19-Aug-19 11:27 PM] curi#0644 yeah the LOL analogy is good [19-Aug-19 11:28 PM] curi#0644 that's something i find hard to explain to ppl [19-Aug-19 11:29 PM] TheRatWay#9334 so maybe Cat thought you were being arrogant for judging him from short exchanges, but its possible he was the one being arrogant to think that it was not possible to judge him from short exchanges. [19-Aug-19 11:30 PM] curi#0644 yes [19-Aug-19 11:32 PM] curi#0644 afaict, i have far more philosophical discussion experience than anyone else. quality and intellectual methods matters more than quantity, but i think quantity is notable. [19-Aug-19 11:33 PM] curi#0644 i've already alienated hundreds of ppl by doing analysis or sharing criticism that they claimed to want. [19-Aug-19 11:34 PM] curi#0644 i often see it coming but it's very hard to fix anyway [19-Aug-19 11:34 PM] curi#0644 one of the things that makes it hard is multi-person discussions. e.g. answering your questions about cat. it's hard to talk to you, and design comments for you, while also avoiding alienating cat. you each want different information. [19-Aug-19 11:36 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Maybe not that different. I too was arrogant to think you couldn't possibly have judged him from a few short exchanges. I also want to know what you judged about me, but I am also a bit scared of it. [19-Aug-19 11:37 PM] curi#0644 you asked about explanations for some things i said, related to cat, that cat didn't want to know. [19-Aug-19 11:38 PM] curi#0644 saying cat didn't want to know was itself controversial and problematic. [19-Aug-19 11:38 PM] curi#0644 but so was answering. [19-Aug-19 11:38 PM] curi#0644 i still mostly haven't answered and don't intend to. [19-Aug-19 11:40 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Would you be wiling to say about me or do so in private? I've taken a lot of your time but also I am really curious. [19-Aug-19 11:40 PM] curi#0644 say what? [19-Aug-19 11:41 PM] TheRatWay#9334 The short exchanges we've had presumably has told you a lot as it did for Cat. I'd like to know. [19-Aug-19 11:43 PM] curi#0644 oh my opinion of you. it's basically fine. you started writing blog posts so you're actually doing something. lots of ppl never rly try. of ppl who try some, most fail anyway and usually reveal a lot of dishonest at that point (if not earlier). you have shown unusually low dishonesty indicators so that's good. [19-Aug-19 11:44 PM] curi#0644 you're also pretty calm and non-arrogant. [19-Aug-19 11:45 PM] curi#0644 skill level is in the normal range for new ppl. can't rly expect much more. [19-Aug-19 11:47 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Definitely appreciate that, but for the sake of honesty, I am not calm. I am an anxious mess much of the time and am constantly doubting myself. [19-Aug-19 11:48 PM] curi#0644 i had in mind your approach to discussion. this went much more calmly than typical. [19-Aug-19 11:52 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I do feel guilty, maybe a good friend would have defended him. [19-Aug-19 11:52 PM] TheRatWay#9334 and left with him. [19-Aug-19 11:55 PM] curi#0644 social pressures are dangerous [19-Aug-19 11:56 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Do you think I should continue the trajectory with Popper, write again about Deutsch. How do I keep myself from proceeding arrogantly. I changed the blog name because I realized it half made it seem like I knew CR already. Im a newbie. [19-Aug-19 11:57 PM] curi#0644 dunno details. general ballpark of CR epistemology stuff from KP/DD/ET all sounds fine. [19-Aug-19 11:59 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Well this has been very enlightening. Thank you. I am off to bed. [20-Aug-19 12:00 AM] curi#0644 np cu [20-Aug-19 06:51 AM] JustinCEO#3132 curi: > i don't like reading cog sci stuff, it's all awful and non-Popperian [20-Aug-19 06:52 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Mingmecha asked why awful [20-Aug-19 06:53 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat: > Curi thinks we're blank slates and cog sci contradicts that would be my guess [20-Aug-19 06:57 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat could have asked curi directly for his reasoning. Or Cat could have framed Cat's guess as a question and asked curi if Cat's guess was correct. [20-Aug-19 06:59 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat > Rand is like a Mix of Kant and Nietszche right ? Self made will to power, all reason. Very polemic etc...? [20-Aug-19 07:00 AM] JustinCEO#3132 That's some strong flaming right there. Where'd he even get that particular misconception [20-Aug-19 07:00 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat > Most people who have called themselves Randians or objectivists I've come across have been very rude. Granted, prior to this Discord I've met like 3 or 4. I don't know if its just coincidence, or if her philosophy calls for being rude. [20-Aug-19 07:01 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat doesn't consider that maybe his ideas about rudeness should be re-examined [20-Aug-19 07:02 AM] JustinCEO#3132 curi to Cat: > you are unserious and are biased against those kinds of ideas. [20-Aug-19 07:03 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Does anyone think Cat has approached discussions here in a serious way? [20-Aug-19 07:10 AM] JustinCEO#3132 > so maybe Cat thought you were being arrogant for judging him from short exchanges, but its possible he was the one being arrogant to think that it was not possible to judge him from short exchanges. [20-Aug-19 07:14 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I was talking to a WW2 vet once [20-Aug-19 07:15 AM] JustinCEO#3132 He was telling me how they trained pilots to be able to recognize both friendly and enemy planes almost instantly from brief glances at a silhouette [20-Aug-19 07:17 AM] JustinCEO#3132 We were talking at some event. There were small photographs of various WW2 planes along one wall, and tiny labels beneath saying what plane they were. He could still correctly rattle off all the names from memory [20-Aug-19 07:18 AM] JustinCEO#3132 being able to make important judgements very quickly from a small amount of data is a skill that can be (and is) developed in various contexts [20-Aug-19 08:55 AM] JustinCEO#3132 It'd be absurd to say that being able to quickly identify airplanes based on silhouette is impossible just because *you* can't. Most people would concede this cuz there is nothing at stake for them. But they object to the idea that people could rapidly make accurate judgments about them, both because they hate the specific content of those judgments, and because they hate the idea in general that they fall into some identifiable type/have some typical category of flaws or whatever. They want to be special snowflakes. [20-Aug-19 08:55 AM] JustinCEO#3132 If they had refutations of the specific judgments they would offer them. [20-Aug-19 08:56 AM] JustinCEO#3132 If there was a reason they didn't fall into some category or have some flaw they would state it [20-Aug-19 08:56 AM] JustinCEO#3132 The reaction of negativity and hate and irrationality damns them way more than the initial judgment itself, and confirms it [20-Aug-19 09:06 AM] JustinCEO#3132 ``` "All of you welfare preachers-it's not unearned money that you're after. You want handouts, but of a different kind. I'm a gold-digger of the spirit, you said, because I look for value. Then you, the welfare preachers... it's the spirit that you want to loot. I never thought and nobody ever told us how it could be thought of and what it would mean-the unearned in spirit. But that is what you want. You want unearned love. You want unearned admiration. You want unearned greatness. You want to be a man like Hank Rearden without the necessity of being what he is. Without the necessity of being anything. Without... the necessity... of being." "Shut up!" he screamed. ``` [20-Aug-19 12:01 PM] TheRatWay#9334 What does very polemic mean? [20-Aug-19 12:02 PM] TheRatWay#9334 or even more important, what do people mean when they say very polemic [20-Aug-19 12:02 PM] TheRatWay#9334 ? [20-Aug-19 12:02 PM] curi#0644 try dictionaries [20-Aug-19 12:02 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Dictionary says: a strong verbal or written attack on someone or something. [20-Aug-19 12:02 PM] TheRatWay#9334 but people seem to mean this is bad [20-Aug-19 12:03 PM] curi#0644 attacking is not truth-seeking [20-Aug-19 12:03 PM] curi#0644 and i said dictionaries plural. you're using a particularly bad one. [20-Aug-19 12:03 PM] curi#0644 comparing many definitions helps [20-Aug-19 12:07 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I see. Its aggressive attack - presumably the goal is to "win" but not to find out what's true. [20-Aug-19 12:10 PM] TheRatWay#9334 This definition from Wiktionary is too vague, and I think could be mistaken for criticism "polemic (plural polemics) A person who writes in support of one opinion, doctrine, or system, in opposition to another" Webster's seems more specific as it highlights aggressive "attack." [20-Aug-19 12:15 PM] curi#0644 dictionaries are not great at philosophy but often still useful [20-Aug-19 02:14 PM] JustinCEO#3132 https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1163838736213393408?s=21 {Embed} Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1163838736213393408?s=21 Sorry, I don’t buy Rep. Tlaib’s tears. I have watched her violence, craziness and, most importantly, WORDS, for far too long. Now tears? She hates Israel and all Jewish people. She is an anti-Semite. She and her 3 friends are the new face of the Democrat Party. Live wi... Retweets 26924 Likes 101684 Twitter [20-Aug-19 02:17 PM] JustinCEO#3132 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613481749875261486/image0.png [20-Aug-19 02:18 PM] JustinCEO#3132 Trump calling Tlaib anti Semite is good [20-Aug-19 02:24 PM] JustinCEO#3132 I would guess that typical Jewish dem voters are leftists with at least some anti Semitic premises/attitudes, though generally milder than the sort of thing Omar and Tlaib would go for. Saying it's a matter of ignorance is too kind (even when framed as an alternative). Plenty of resources out there to learn the case for Israel if you want to [20-Aug-19 02:25 PM] JustinCEO#3132 And there's plenty of Jewish Dems that will call Israel an apartheid state and stuff [20-Aug-19 02:40 PM] JustinCEO#3132 I'd prefer a wall, mass deportations, Obamacare repeal, and an end to weak on crime/anti gun/tariffs stuff over just calling out anti semites tho. Calling out anti semites should be more of a side hobby [20-Aug-19 03:58 PM] curi bot#0000 New stream or video! #20 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-C7Vb5yX4c {Embed} curi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-C7Vb5yX4c #20 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://elliottemple.com/ https://i.ytimg.com/vi/b-C7Vb5yX4c/hqdefault_live.jpg {Reactions} 👍 [20-Aug-19 03:59 PM] curi#0644 err wtf [20-Aug-19 03:59 PM] curi#0644 i was still in the part of setup where u decide if u schedule it for later or not [20-Aug-19 03:59 PM] curi#0644 and set the title [20-Aug-19 04:00 PM] curi#0644 and it just did that with old title [20-Aug-19 04:00 PM] curi#0644 after i already edited to 21 on my screen [20-Aug-19 04:00 PM] curi#0644 stream soon tho [20-Aug-19 11:36 PM] Mingmecha#9318 @JustinCEO "Does anyone think Cat has approached discussions here in a serious way?' [20-Aug-19 11:36 PM] Mingmecha#9318 no [20-Aug-19 11:39 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Everytime i read about the sitution in china it angers me how evil that country and the CCP are . Is this bad on my part to react with such anger where it distracts me for about 20 to 30 min after hearing yet another autrocity happening there? [20-Aug-19 11:40 PM] Mingmecha#9318 i feel like i have a strong sense of justice but i dont exactly know how to define that objectively or identify where my emotions are coming from [20-Aug-19 11:41 PM] Mingmecha#9318 https://www.amazon.com/Nothing-True-Everything-Possible-Surreal/dp/1610396006 [20-Aug-19 11:42 PM] Mingmecha#9318 and speaking of this i read this book about russia and it made me feel so angry i had to stop reading. for the same reasons i couldnt beleive how bad russia is as well. [20-Aug-19 11:43 PM] Mingmecha#9318 People dont understand how important it is for america and its ideals to win over this [20-Aug-19 11:50 PM] curi#0644 have you read anything about Mao? [20-Aug-19 11:50 PM] curi#0644 i read some recently and it's awful... [20-Aug-19 11:50 PM] curi#0644 yes i think getting distracted from your life by this is bad [20-Aug-19 11:51 PM] curi#0644 gulag archipelago is awful too [20-Aug-19 11:51 PM] curi#0644 i also liked Sharansky's book Fear No Evil but i don't remember it much [20-Aug-19 11:51 PM] curi#0644 there are also books about how the general population willingly participated in hitler's germany [20-Aug-19 11:52 PM] curi#0644 there are other things that are, in some ways, even worse. like how children are treated in America. and people are much more blind to that. with china stuff, a LOT of Americans would think it was awful if they knew about it. [20-Aug-19 11:53 PM] curi#0644 or how Rand's books are treated in the world today. that's awful. same with DD's books, my writing, Mises' books, Reisman's, and some others. [20-Aug-19 11:55 PM] curi#0644 the world has huge problems. it is at the *beginning* of infinity. there's sooooo much more to improve. making progress is urgent and serious. ppl generally don't see it that way or care all that much. i do. DD used to understand and care but he's broken now. in general i don't regard anyone else at FI as being sufficiently motivated by such things. and it's not just world problems, they all have personal problems too. knowledge helps with both, it's not one or the other. [20-Aug-19 11:56 PM] curi#0644 Justin has been around longer than I have. he's just now started making a bunch of videos. i hope it will last. i've been doing a lot for all those years (~18) continuously. [20-Aug-19 11:58 PM] Mingmecha#9318 its just hard sometimes it really effects me deeply seeing such evil [20-Aug-19 11:58 PM] Mingmecha#9318 i dont know what to do anout the feeling or if its irrational [20-Aug-19 11:58 PM] curi#0644 the grammar stuff got Anne, Kate and Justin doing more. Kate also studied Objectivism a bunch privately, hidden from critical feedback. [20-Aug-19 11:58 PM] curi#0644 alan, alisa and andy post irregularly. [20-Aug-19 11:59 PM] Mingmecha#9318 i dont know who those people are [20-Aug-19 11:59 PM] curi#0644 you should read FI list 🙂 [21-Aug-19 12:00 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i want to say something rn but can we continue it in the semi private chat before i do? [21-Aug-19 12:00 AM] curi#0644 you can't hold up the world. you have to shrug. China is not your problem. if you're productive and effective it will help indirectly. and you might conceivably work on a project more directly related to China, at some point, if it's also a particularly good project for you for other reasons. Rand said if FH hadn't gotten a publisher she was just gonna do her own thing and not help the world. work some unimportant job and live her life. something like that. [21-Aug-19 12:01 AM] curi#0644 you can talk there [21-Aug-19 12:02 AM] Mingmecha#9318 well its personal [21-Aug-19 12:02 AM] curi#0644 if i reply to what you say there, i will reply there. [21-Aug-19 12:02 AM] curi#0644 gonna continue these thoughts here for now [21-Aug-19 12:03 AM] curi#0644 the scale of the world's problems indicates something about the necessary strategy to change much: you must become **extremely powerful**. trying to change anything while only mediumly powerful won't do much. that's only useful as practice, as part of a process of learning and powering up. [21-Aug-19 12:04 AM] curi#0644 i have in mind the power of knowledge, of problem solving, of critical thinking, of learning effectively. those are the things that fuel projects and make them succeed. things like political power, popularity, prestige, and wealth are all secondary. [21-Aug-19 12:04 AM] Mingmecha#9318 is it ok to feel alone and sad about this [21-Aug-19 12:05 AM] curi#0644 those other things won't get you anywhere if you are making bad decisions, can't think logically, etc. one must be good at those things to *super high standards*, higher than most "intellectuals" think is even possible. [21-Aug-19 12:05 AM] Mingmecha#9318 somtimes i cry about it and i tell myself "stop being a pussy just do good work you cant fix the whole world" [21-Aug-19 12:05 AM] curi#0644 i don't think ppl other than me should feel alone and sad about it. i put out so much content and i'm available a lot. [21-Aug-19 12:06 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i feel alone cause i dont have anyone to share my values with or nobody cares/bores me [21-Aug-19 12:06 AM] curi#0644 you sound IRL-biased. [21-Aug-19 12:07 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i dont have online friends so im not used to that [21-Aug-19 12:07 AM] Mingmecha#9318 idk if its the same thing [21-Aug-19 12:07 AM] Mingmecha#9318 Im leaning towrds no [21-Aug-19 12:08 AM] Mingmecha#9318 if so why would that be wrong of me to want that over online [21-Aug-19 12:08 AM] curi#0644 the internet is amazing. it's not identical but it's very good and it's actually better in a lot of ways such as pausing and controlling the speed of videos and playing them on your own schedule. [21-Aug-19 12:08 AM] curi#0644 you don't have to pick one or the other but should get what you can out of what's available. [21-Aug-19 12:08 AM] Mingmecha#9318 well yeah i agree with that [21-Aug-19 12:09 AM] curi#0644 The FI community is the best galt's gulch there is. you could engage with it much more. {Reactions} 👍 [21-Aug-19 12:09 AM] Mingmecha#9318 but i mean having even one damn friend thats worth a damn would be nice [21-Aug-19 12:09 AM] Mingmecha#9318 maybe im just afraid of being disappointed again [21-Aug-19 12:10 AM] curi#0644 well you could always move to where i live in 5 years if you actually spend that time discussing and learning and stuff, and things go well enough. or someone else you find online. [21-Aug-19 12:11 AM] Mingmecha#9318 what do you mean 5 years what happens then [21-Aug-19 12:12 AM] curi#0644 well you shouldn't now. i don't know you well. maybe you'll dislike me in 6 months. most ppl do. maybe you won't do enough to learn what i know and be compatible enough with me that i'd want you around in a format that's harder to control. but over time we might become friends more than we are now. [21-Aug-19 12:13 AM] Mingmecha#9318 "but over time we might become friends more than we are now" that legit made me tear up rn [21-Aug-19 12:13 AM] Mingmecha#9318 am i being weak? [21-Aug-19 12:13 AM] curi#0644 no. just less than superhuman. [21-Aug-19 12:14 AM] curi#0644 > They perish gradually, giving up, extinguishing their minds before they have a chance to grasp the nature of the evil they are facing. In lonely agony, they go from confident eagerness to bewilderment to indignation to resignation—to obscurity. And while their elders putter about, conserving redwood forests and building sanctuaries for mallard ducks, nobody notices those youths as they drop out of sight one by one, like sparks vanishing in limitless black space; nobody builds sanctuaries for the best of the human species. [21-Aug-19 12:14 AM] curi#0644 http://mail.curi.us/1754-no-one-else-discusses-ayn-rand {Embed} http://mail.curi.us/1754-no-one-else-discusses-ayn-rand No One Else Discusses Ayn Rand This is expanded from a letter I wrote to Per-Olof Samuelsson. I already knew that quality discussion of Objectivism is virtually impossible to come by. It occurred to me that I've never heard a singl [21-Aug-19 12:14 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i just need to learn more for now get better [21-Aug-19 12:14 AM] curi#0644 the next paragraph ends: > But these are exceptions that mankind has no right to expect. [21-Aug-19 12:14 AM] curi#0644 you can't be expected to find this easy or even to survive the situation. [21-Aug-19 12:15 AM] Mingmecha#9318 Thank you curi [21-Aug-19 12:15 AM] curi#0644 maybe you will. but that'd be super heroic. less than that isn't weakness. [21-Aug-19 12:18 AM] curi#0644 i've never seen an Objectivist discuss that article or quote other than FI ppl who got it from me. there's something really bad about that. [21-Aug-19 12:18 AM] curi#0644 i suggest rereading the article. [21-Aug-19 12:18 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i actually have some of her quotes on my wall and this is one among them [21-Aug-19 12:18 AM] curi#0644 🙂 [21-Aug-19 12:18 AM] Mingmecha#9318 im reading rn [21-Aug-19 12:18 AM] curi#0644 well that makes *two* independent sources who noted the quote. [21-Aug-19 12:19 AM] curi#0644 no doubt there are more. but i've googled and maybe none of them, but me, post stuff publicly online. [21-Aug-19 12:20 AM] curi#0644 i think fewer than 1 in 100 million ppl get great at philosophy without substantial engagement in quality discussion forums. [21-Aug-19 12:21 AM] curi#0644 a lot more than that have some significant intelligence and potential. but it's too hard to figure everything out yourself and correct all your own errors. the educational materials available in non-interactive form, like books, videos and articles, don't include everything. they leave too much to reinvent, too many gaps to fill in. [21-Aug-19 12:22 AM] curi#0644 and even if they didn't, ppl make mistakes and don't see or understand some portion of their own mistakes even after looking for them a bunch. it's just to be expected to make some important mistakes and fail to identify them, even if some books explained them well (you will sometimes misunderstand what you read). [21-Aug-19 12:25 AM] curi#0644 there isn't much to be done about the mistakes *everyone* makes. progress can be made, but there is always more of that which hasn't been made yet. but it makes a *huge* difference to avoid the vast majority of mistakes that some other ppl know about. it makes a huge difference to get corrections from other ppl. if you get 10 great ppl, they will mostly misunderstand existing knowledge (e.g. stuff that's already explained in books) in different ways, not the same ways. they'll make lots of different errors instead of all the same ones. if their error rate is 0.05, then the chance they all randomly make the same mistake is 0.05^10 which is tiny. and it gets better with more ppl. this still leaves the problems of systematic biases affecting many ppl or stuff no one knows, but it solves a big problem. [21-Aug-19 12:25 AM] curi#0644 this requires that ppl are actually able to share corrections and then the guy being corrected is able to actually appreciate the info and change. that's hard but doable. [21-Aug-19 12:27 AM] curi#0644 FI does this but is overly reliant on me to give corrections. and i've had little access to external corrections for the last 10 years. [21-Aug-19 12:27 AM] curi#0644 but i got a huge amount of corrections before that, primarily from DD (and early on, when i knew less, from ppl who'd already learned from DD) [21-Aug-19 12:28 AM] curi#0644 it's hard to get corrections b/c of being way ahead of ppl, but that means i know a lot and can help ppl. [21-Aug-19 12:29 AM] Mingmecha#9318 my only concern isnt an Oist supposed to be an independent thinker and not care bout what others think of him (roark)? [21-Aug-19 12:30 AM] curi#0644 the issue isn't what others think of you, it's the arguments and explanations they share. [21-Aug-19 12:30 AM] Mingmecha#9318 so where is the line [21-Aug-19 12:30 AM] curi#0644 well in the end its your judgment [21-Aug-19 12:30 AM] curi#0644 but reasonable ppl can discuss their judgment a lot and generally come to agree or at least understand each other [21-Aug-19 12:30 AM] Mingmecha#9318 how do you get the confindence in my own ideas if i let myself be too skeptical [21-Aug-19 12:31 AM] Mingmecha#9318 not like a skeptic but just the procces of doing that i find can be harmful in some people they never make up their mind [21-Aug-19 12:32 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i mean we can agree on fundementals [21-Aug-19 12:32 AM] curi#0644 critical analysis of your ideas – exposing them to criticism, addressing arguments, learning all issues – is how you gain rational confidence. [21-Aug-19 12:32 AM] Mingmecha#9318 but until reading DD and popper i never knew rands epistomology could be challeneged like that [21-Aug-19 12:32 AM] curi#0644 the more you try to criticize ideas and they survive and you know how to defend them against every argument, the more you should be confident. [21-Aug-19 12:33 AM] curi#0644 it's an ongoing process of error correction that stabilizes the truth and differentiates it from error. [21-Aug-19 12:33 AM] curi#0644 if you're not being critical enough, you can't tell the difference between good and bad ideas well enough. [21-Aug-19 12:33 AM] curi#0644 it's when you do everything you can to find fault with your ideas that you can appreciate the ones that are actually really good and see how they are better than ideas that can't stand up to as much scrutiny. [21-Aug-19 12:34 AM] Mingmecha#9318 ok so given everything you said of what value doesnot caring about what others think of you? im reminded of the part where roark says to peter about not asking about ones work [21-Aug-19 12:34 AM] curi#0644 i'm very skeptical (i'd say critical) but i also make up my mind. i form judgments. many of them last with no need to revisit them. ppl mostly find i'm able to judge quickly and aggressively, from their perspective. [21-Aug-19 12:34 AM] Mingmecha#9318 it seemed like it had to be you to discover it independent of others [21-Aug-19 12:35 AM] curi#0644 you shouldn't care what ppl think about you *socially*, or without reasons. it's not their opinions that matter but the reasoning that they communicate. for once they tell you an idea, now it's your idea too. it's in your head. you know it. so you must judge it. [21-Aug-19 12:36 AM] curi#0644 you shouldn't be biased about ideas based on their sources, e.g. who originated the idea. every idea in your head must be evaluated on its actual content and merits. can you state anything wrong with it? [21-Aug-19 12:36 AM] Mingmecha#9318 so rand meant it in a social way? [21-Aug-19 12:36 AM] curi#0644 the issue is primarily social. caring about ideas that someone told you, and now you're thinking about yourself, is not caring what they think. [21-Aug-19 12:36 AM] Mingmecha#9318 like i agree with you but saw rands way of being the ideal [21-Aug-19 12:37 AM] Mingmecha#9318 a heroic response [21-Aug-19 12:37 AM] curi#0644 once they tell you the idea, if you can't see any flaw in it, you will accept it *even if they say they were just joking and it's obviously ridiculous*. [21-Aug-19 12:37 AM] curi#0644 it doesn't matter what they think of the idea they told you unless they can actually share a useful idea like a counter argument. [21-Aug-19 12:39 AM] curi#0644 this is how ideas always must be accepted. on your own judgment, so that you would keep the idea even if the source of the idea changed their mind. this is how people must accepted *my* ideas – so if i erased all my writing and died, or said i was trolling, or anything else, it wouldn't matter. nothing but a new, topical argument/explanation could matter. b/c once you understand it and judge it yourself, it's yours and only a rational process – pointing out a flaw or superior alternative – can change that. [21-Aug-19 12:40 AM] curi#0644 i don't think identically to Rand about this. i think she didn't know all this. e.g. she didn't talk about error correction and fallibility much. and i think the heroes in AS and FH under-communicate. i think Roark should have explained more to Dominique rather than her needing to figure things out herself somehow. [21-Aug-19 12:40 AM] curi#0644 same with galt+francisco not explaining to Dagny. [21-Aug-19 12:41 AM] Mingmecha#9318 i see [21-Aug-19 12:41 AM] curi#0644 if you're really independent you can be exposed to ideas – hear it all – and it doesn't control you. [21-Aug-19 12:42 AM] curi#0644 similar to how Dagny had to be able to hear about what was happening outside the gulch, not shut her eyes to it. [21-Aug-19 12:42 AM] curi#0644 it's just information that you can use. [21-Aug-19 12:42 AM] Mingmecha#9318 ok this was very helpful [21-Aug-19 12:42 AM] curi#0644 you ought to be able to organize it all, and judge it, integrate it, make sense of it, etc. though not all at once. you can set some aside temporarily, decide what to focus on first, etc. [21-Aug-19 12:43 AM] curi#0644 your interest and priorities should themselves be open to criticism and feedback. [21-Aug-19 12:43 AM] curi#0644 your methods need error correction too. [21-Aug-19 12:43 AM] curi#0644 but, again, that feedback is just information you can evaluate, etc. [21-Aug-19 12:43 AM] Mingmecha#9318 "if you're really independent you can be exposed to ideas – hear it all – and it doesn't control you." [21-Aug-19 12:44 AM] Mingmecha#9318 this summed it up to me. It "clicked" for lack of a better term [21-Aug-19 12:44 AM] curi#0644 > im reminded of the part where roark says to peter about not asking about ones work i ask ppl about my work sometimes. i like to think outloud and talk about it and get some reminders and prompts. and maybe even some useful tips. but i don't feel pressured or controlled by getting ppl's comments. [21-Aug-19 12:45 AM] curi#0644 > not like a skeptic but just the procces of doing that i find can be harmful in some people they never make up their mind ppl who can't make up their mind cannot solve that problem by hiding from some information. the problem is in them, it's their own judgment. [21-Aug-19 12:46 AM] curi#0644 Roark, btw, was not scared of Toohey, nor the dean. he didn't think of Toohey, in general, but he didn't have to avoid him. he could hear Toohey's comments and it wasn't a big deal. [21-Aug-19 12:46 AM] Mingmecha#9318 ive actively avoid asking for advice on my projects and my art but when i hear critiques i listen and ask why they think that but nothing more [21-Aug-19 12:46 AM] curi#0644 Roark could read any book and it wouldn't screw him up. he wouldn't lose confidence or become wishy washy. [21-Aug-19 12:47 AM] curi#0644 he could listen to Keating's advice on his career, or Francon's, or whatever, and it might be boring but it wouldn't screw him up. [21-Aug-19 12:48 AM] Mingmecha#9318 but somone who claimes they know what they want doesnt inherently make them correct right how do you change that [21-Aug-19 12:49 AM] Mingmecha#9318 im hypotheticising (or however you spell that) about my issue i find it helps [21-Aug-19 12:50 AM] curi#0644 i don't follow. change what? [21-Aug-19 12:50 AM] Mingmecha#9318 like how would you help them accept criticism [21-Aug-19 12:50 AM] Mingmecha#9318 or adopt it as a tool [21-Aug-19 12:51 AM] curi#0644 well, a proper criticism will explain *from their perspective, why X is better than Y or why Y will not accomplish goal Z*. [21-Aug-19 12:51 AM] curi#0644 it will apply to their context and matter according to their values (either their idea won't work as intended or something else will work better) [21-Aug-19 12:52 AM] Mingmecha#9318 ok [21-Aug-19 12:53 AM] Mingmecha#9318 well thanks agin for this I need to work on my painting and drawing for tonight [21-Aug-19 12:54 AM] Mingmecha#9318 its pretty late for you right? [21-Aug-19 12:54 AM] Mingmecha#9318 we are in the same time zone [21-Aug-19 12:54 AM] curi#0644 > ok this was very helpful Tips are welcome. https://www.paypal.com/paypalme2/ElliotTemple {Embed} https://www.paypal.com/paypalme2/ElliotTemple PayPal.me: profile Sample [21-Aug-19 12:54 AM] curi#0644 1am [21-Aug-19 12:55 AM] Mingmecha#9318 ok i will i found it valueble [21-Aug-19 12:55 AM] Mingmecha#9318 Gn [21-Aug-19 10:07 AM] curi bot#0000 New stream or video! #22 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU9c7Zwbq8A {Embed} curi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU9c7Zwbq8A #22 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://elliottemple.com/ https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DU9c7Zwbq8A/hqdefault_live.jpg {Reactions} 😃 [21-Aug-19 02:15 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613843667056328706/unknown.png [21-Aug-19 02:15 PM] curi#0644 ppl are unreasonable [21-Aug-19 02:15 PM] curi#0644 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_9k2b09k9U&lc=z22yt5az3pb5trr0oacdp431yatql2th0ri4zh4jv3xw03c010c.1566420712575378&feature=em-comments {Embed} curi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_9k2b09k9U&lc=z22yt5az3pb5trr0oacdp431yatql2th0ri4zh4jv3xw03c010c.1566420712575378&feature=em-comments Philosopher's Mistakes This episode discusses mistakes made by major philosophers. In my podcast, I talk about philosophy, politics and more. My screen is recorded, but I talk so t... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/k_9k2b09k9U/maxresdefault.jpg [21-Aug-19 07:02 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Curi have you read the book "myth of the mirror neurons" and if so how does this work with DD's book "beginning of infinity" when he says that it's part of how we adopted creativity? [21-Aug-19 07:02 PM] curi#0644 no but i told DD that mirror neurons are crap (except the detailed argument version) [21-Aug-19 07:03 PM] Mingmecha#9318 So it doesn't conflict with the theory if it is crap? [21-Aug-19 07:03 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Cause I was rereading that part rn at work with the new earbud [21-Aug-19 07:04 PM] curi#0644 i think DD is mistaken about them [21-Aug-19 07:04 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613916267748917248/unknown.png [21-Aug-19 07:04 PM] curi#0644 there's one bit of public discussion. DD did not reply. for context, DD has long believed that ASD is evil crap. [21-Aug-19 07:05 PM] curi#0644 this is not a primary point but ugh [21-Aug-19 07:08 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613917281931755521/unknown.png [21-Aug-19 07:08 PM] curi#0644 u can find more in the archives. [21-Aug-19 07:08 PM] Mingmecha#9318 So it doesn't conflict with the evidence? [21-Aug-19 07:09 PM] Mingmecha#9318 Mirror neurons being wrong I mean [21-Aug-19 07:09 PM] curi#0644 what evidence? [21-Aug-19 07:09 PM] Hopenager#1182 curi, to clarify, are you saying that the theory of mirror neurons in general is crap, or just when applied to humans? [21-Aug-19 07:11 PM] curi#0644 it's been years, but i don't recall reading about a non-human version. i would be very suspicious. one thing i'd look at is whether its advocates disavow ramachandran or not (if they are any good, they would). [21-Aug-19 07:12 PM] Hopenager#1182 In DD's recent essay in the "Possible Minds" book he says: `“Aping” (imitating certain behaviors without understanding) uses inborn hacks such as the mirror-neuron system. But behaviors imitated that way are drastically limited in complexity. See Richard Byrne, “Imitation as Behaviour Parsing,” Phil. Trans. R. Soc., B 358:1431, 529-36 (2003).` [21-Aug-19 07:13 PM] Hopenager#1182 So I don't think he thinks that mirror neurons play an important role in human understanding or imitation [21-Aug-19 07:15 PM] curi#0644 i don't know why you're trying to jump into the middle of a debate you're unfamiliar with [21-Aug-19 07:16 PM] curi#0644 you seem to only talk when you want to hit and run disagree with me [21-Aug-19 07:17 PM] curi#0644 but you have never shown any interest in learning anything [21-Aug-19 07:17 PM] curi#0644 and you have never discussed anything to anywhere near a conclusion [21-Aug-19 07:17 PM] Hopenager#1182 I just spoke up because what you were saying seemed to conflict with my understanding of DD's position on mirror neurons [21-Aug-19 07:18 PM] curi#0644 you're wrong and unfamiliar with his views [21-Aug-19 07:18 PM] Hopenager#1182 Perhaps, you have had much more communication with him than I have. I just thought it would be worth mentioning in case you had somehow misunderstood his position [21-Aug-19 07:19 PM] curi#0644 you're lying [21-Aug-19 07:19 PM] Hopenager#1182 What am I lying about? [21-Aug-19 07:19 PM] curi#0644 that you "just thought it would be worth mentioning in case" [21-Aug-19 07:19 PM] Hopenager#1182 what makes you say that? [21-Aug-19 07:20 PM] curi#0644 you did not present it in anything resembling that manner, and have never acted consistent with that being what you think. [21-Aug-19 07:20 PM] curi#0644 you're being very conventionally defensive while also avoiding replying to things i said to you [21-Aug-19 07:21 PM] Hopenager#1182 What about the way that I presented it conflicted with the idea that I brought it up because I thought you might have a misunderstanding? [21-Aug-19 07:21 PM] curi#0644 you're already changing the wording of your claim [21-Aug-19 07:27 PM] Hopenager#1182 What significant difference of wording is there between `in case you had somehow misunderstood his position` and `I thought you might have a misunderstanding`? I didn't intend to change the wording significantly [21-Aug-19 07:27 PM] Hopenager#1182 also, are you going to answer the previous question? [21-Aug-19 07:27 PM] curi#0644 if you don't have the skill to see the difference between those, this is not the conversation we should be having. [21-Aug-19 07:30 PM] curi#0644 you need to have conversations that you're capable of dealing with productively. you should start small, succeed, and work up. but you neither want to do that nor discuss the matter. that's an impasse. your disinterest in learning and disinterest in discussing your disinterest in learning is another impasse. [21-Aug-19 07:31 PM] Hopenager#1182 It seems to me that this conversation would have been plenty productive if you had answered my questions directly instead of changing the subject [21-Aug-19 07:32 PM] curi#0644 you seem to be implicitly agreeing about the stated impasses [21-Aug-19 07:32 PM] Hopenager#1182 I did not intend to imply that [21-Aug-19 07:32 PM] curi#0644 why would me looking up quotes to show you you're wrong, and educate you, be productive for me? [21-Aug-19 07:32 PM] curi#0644 that's the conversation you wanted [21-Aug-19 07:32 PM] curi#0644 but you wouldn't even learn much b/c it's too complicated for your skill level. [21-Aug-19 07:34 PM] curi#0644 > I did not intend to imply that this is a way to suggest that i'm wrong without actually committing yourself to saying it. it's also changing the issue from what you did to what you intended. [21-Aug-19 07:35 PM] Hopenager#1182 If you didn't think that looking up quotes would be productive for you, you could have simply said "I have spoken with DD personally about this issue and I can assure you that you're misunderstanding his position", that would have satisfied me [21-Aug-19 07:36 PM] curi#0644 you knew exactly where i was coming from earlier. you were not satisfied. [21-Aug-19 07:38 PM] Hopenager#1182 I did know where you were coming from, but it's always possible that you've made a mistake, including in understanding what his position was. In the case that you had made a mistake, its possible that me pointing out a particular quote that seems to contradict your understanding would help you recognize and correct the mistake [21-Aug-19 07:38 PM] curi#0644 you don't even know what my understanding is [21-Aug-19 07:38 PM] curi#0644 so you can't judge what quotes would contradict it [21-Aug-19 07:39 PM] curi#0644 you are out of your depth and do not want to face it [21-Aug-19 07:39 PM] Hopenager#1182 Its true that I don't know what your understanding is, but what you were saying seemed to conflict with my understanding. [21-Aug-19 07:40 PM] Hopenager#1182 I agree that I'm "out of my depth" in the sense that you probably know more about DD's position on this topic, and all others, than I do [21-Aug-19 07:40 PM] curi#0644 you should try to learn something. [21-Aug-19 07:40 PM] curi#0644 you don't know how to help me, are not helping, and were not actually trying to help. [21-Aug-19 07:40 PM] Hopenager#1182 but I don't think that means that I should avoid pointing out when I think there is a mistake in your ideas [21-Aug-19 07:41 PM] curi#0644 you don't know how to point out mistakes to me, and have never tried to find out. [21-Aug-19 07:41 PM] Hopenager#1182 Is there a special way for pointing out mistakes to you that's different from how I should point out mistakes to a different person? [21-Aug-19 07:42 PM] curi#0644 you don't know how to point out mistakes to anyone, or more generally how to have a rational discussion. [21-Aug-19 07:43 PM] Hopenager#1182 Interesting. My idea for how to have a rational discussion is something like this: when someone says something that contradicts one of my ideas, I explain the idea that I had and where it contradicted what they said [21-Aug-19 07:43 PM] Hopenager#1182 Do you think thats wrong? [21-Aug-19 07:44 PM] curi#0644 yes [21-Aug-19 07:44 PM] Hopenager#1182 Alright, what am I getting wrong? [21-Aug-19 07:44 PM] curi#0644 does the message "Alright, what am I getting wrong?" follow the discussion methodology that you stated? [21-Aug-19 07:44 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yes [21-Aug-19 07:45 PM] curi#0644 you are incompetent and this is a very hard context to educate you in. [21-Aug-19 07:45 PM] Hopenager#1182 more or less [21-Aug-19 07:49 PM] Hopenager#1182 You stated that one of my ideas was wrong, which clearly contradicts one of my ideas, and so the methodology I stated would lead me to explain the idea. But I had already explained the idea, so I instead asked you to elaborate [21-Aug-19 07:49 PM] Hopenager#1182 The "asking you to elaborate" part wasn't in the methodology I stated, but I thought it was obvious enough that my two sentence description of the methodology wasn't exhaustive 😃 [21-Aug-19 07:50 PM] Hopenager#1182 * one sentence [21-Aug-19 07:50 PM] curi#0644 you don't seem to understand qualifiers like "that you stated" [21-Aug-19 07:52 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yes you're technically right, the methodology, as stated, did not encompass the way I responded [21-Aug-19 07:52 PM] Hopenager#1182 I did not assume you meant the question in such a strictly literal way [21-Aug-19 07:53 PM] curi#0644 you are not familiar with my discussion history even thought it's publicly available [21-Aug-19 07:53 PM] curi#0644 if you had wanted to know how to talk to me better, you could have looked or asked [21-Aug-19 07:53 PM] curi#0644 you are doing standard things that people do wrong [21-Aug-19 07:53 PM] Hopenager#1182 I'll ask now then: how should I talk to you better? [21-Aug-19 07:54 PM] Hopenager#1182 also what are the standard things that people do wrong, that seems interesting [21-Aug-19 07:54 PM] curi#0644 i already told you: try to learn something instead of trying to correct me. [21-Aug-19 07:54 PM] curi#0644 why don't you look at some discussions and see? [21-Aug-19 07:55 PM] curi#0644 also you have no clear goals in this conversation, or in general (that you've communicated), nor have you provided any incentives or rewards or benefits for me. [21-Aug-19 07:56 PM] Hopenager#1182 I suppose I'm just not all that convinced that it's worth putting all this effort into learning how to talk with you, specifically, since doing so is apparently quite different from talking to any other person [21-Aug-19 07:57 PM] curi#0644 is "any other person" another of your false statements where you will be like "omg i didn't realize i was supposed to make *true* statements, you're so picky!" ? [21-Aug-19 08:00 PM] Hopenager#1182 I'm not sure why you're being so hostile [21-Aug-19 08:00 PM] curi#0644 you made a false, hostile statement and you're calling *me* hostile for noticing? [21-Aug-19 08:00 PM] Hopenager#1182 I'll rephrase: I suppose I'm just not all that convinced that it's worth putting all this effort into learning how to talk with you, specifically, since doing so is apparently quite different from talking to most other people [21-Aug-19 08:02 PM] curi#0644 Learning how to stop lying, stop doing social climbing behaviors, and get things right, are all worthwhile general purpose skills. [21-Aug-19 08:03 PM] curi#0644 you haven't gotten value because you have not tried to engage with FI in a positive way. you have not done anything you could reasonably expect to help anyone else, nor have you, more important, tried to get help with any positive goal of your own. [21-Aug-19 08:06 PM] curi#0644 also, i have not been hostile. [21-Aug-19 08:06 PM] Hopenager#1182 I don't think I've been hostile either [21-Aug-19 08:06 PM] curi#0644 you exaggerate in adversarial and false ways. [21-Aug-19 08:06 PM] Hopenager#1182 fwiw, I'm currently writing an essay about my thoughts on AGI that I plan to post to FI once I've finished it, to get some feedback [21-Aug-19 08:07 PM] curi#0644 will you be open to the response that that topic is far too hard for you? [21-Aug-19 08:08 PM] Hopenager#1182 I did use hyperbole, but I did not intend it to be hostile. Would it be generally good to avoid all hyperbole when speaking with you and other FI people? If so I'll do that [21-Aug-19 08:08 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yeah its definitely possible that AGI is too hard a topic for me, I'm very open to that possibility [21-Aug-19 08:08 PM] Hopenager#1182 it's a hard topic [21-Aug-19 08:08 PM] curi#0644 the direction of your hyperbole was not random. [21-Aug-19 08:09 PM] curi#0644 have you reviewed any archived discussions about AGI? [21-Aug-19 08:10 PM] curi#0644 and yes i'd advise you to not do hyperbole or jokes. [21-Aug-19 08:10 PM] Hopenager#1182 No, I haven't looked at the discussions about AGI [21-Aug-19 08:10 PM] curi#0644 why not? [21-Aug-19 08:11 PM] Hopenager#1182 Didn't come to mind. I figured I'd just post my essay and get feedback on my own ideas [21-Aug-19 08:11 PM] curi#0644 but now that you're aware of the option, you will or won't do it? [21-Aug-19 08:12 PM] Hopenager#1182 yes, I'm looking through FI for AGI discussions now [21-Aug-19 08:13 PM] curi#0644 non-random exaggerations to ideas, to the point of falsehood (or even less), show biases, agendas, etc. right? if someone is exaggerating in a particular direction, they don't have neutral preferences. [21-Aug-19 08:15 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yes, you've got a point there. The direction of the hyperbole was not random. Perhaps the way I hyperbolized was hostile, though I didn't think of it that way as I was saying it. I suppose in everyday conversation that kind of hyperbole would be brushed off and not questioned, but avoiding hyperbole all for serious discussions like these does seem like a good idea [21-Aug-19 08:15 PM] curi#0644 that is not what happens in everyday conversation, but i can accept that's honest ignorance. [21-Aug-19 08:16 PM] curi#0644 not knowing you're being hostile, or not *consciously* intending hostility, is *the typical case for hostility in these kinds of discussions*. [21-Aug-19 08:18 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yes, that makes sense. Though it seemed to me like when I spoke with typical, implicit hostility, you responded with explicit hostility. Why respond that way? It seems likely to alienate people, since they did not intend their hostility, and they perceive you as suddenly becoming hostile for no reason (as I did) [21-Aug-19 08:18 PM] curi#0644 what did you think was explicit hostility? [21-Aug-19 08:19 PM] curi#0644 also i find it amazing (though i think i shouldn't) that you would think there was any kind of sudden change after the previous like 20 messages were largely similar. [21-Aug-19 08:21 PM] Hopenager#1182 The message `is "any other person" another of your false statements where you will be like "omg i didn't realize i was supposed to make true statements, you're so picky!" ?` seemed particularly explicitly hostile. There was definitely an adversarial quality to the conversation before that point, but that seemed like a sudden jump in hostility to me [21-Aug-19 08:22 PM] curi#0644 and what is your objection to that message? [21-Aug-19 08:22 PM] Hopenager#1182 Though I suppose `you're lying` and `you are incompetent and this is a very hard context to educate you in.` were quite hostile even before that one [21-Aug-19 08:22 PM] curi#0644 what's hostile about those? [21-Aug-19 08:23 PM] curi#0644 you interpreted things as hostile and *didn't say so* and *didn't try to do any problem solving* and got progressively more hostile as a result (though it wasn't the initial reason for your hostility). [21-Aug-19 08:23 PM] curi#0644 this is very typical but it's also sabotage. [21-Aug-19 08:24 PM] curi#0644 when you tried to respond normally, it was lying by implication. it implied you didn't mind. [21-Aug-19 08:24 PM] Hopenager#1182 My objection is that "omg i didn't realize i was supposed to make true statements, you're so picky!" is blatant mockery, much more rude and hostile (at least, explicitly) than anything I'd said before. I understand now where you were coming from, I think, so I don't mind, but it seems like speaking that way to someone who hasn't yet been explicitly hostile is likely to alienate them [21-Aug-19 08:24 PM] curi#0644 that kind of lying is very normal and standard, but also destructive. [21-Aug-19 08:25 PM] curi#0644 can you come up with any interpretation where that quote has a productive purpose or makes literal sense? [21-Aug-19 08:25 PM] Hopenager#1182 which quote? [21-Aug-19 08:26 PM] curi#0644 "omg i didn't realize i was supposed to make true statements, you're so picky!" [21-Aug-19 08:28 PM] Hopenager#1182 I'm not sure I even understand the question. The purpose of the quote was to mock what I had previously said, though I don't know if that is a productive purpose. [21-Aug-19 08:28 PM] curi#0644 can you come up with any other interpretation or purpose? [21-Aug-19 08:29 PM] Hopenager#1182 To show me the way that I was coming across from your perspective [21-Aug-19 08:29 PM] curi#0644 yes, that's one. [21-Aug-19 08:29 PM] curi#0644 so why assume hostility when you can think of a non-hostile reason i would say it? [21-Aug-19 08:31 PM] Hopenager#1182 That interpretation doesn't mean you weren't being hostile. You could have accomplished the same thing in a non-hostile way by saying "From my perspective your previous message just sounds like 'I didn't realize I was supposed to make true statements'". The fact that you didn't say it that way, and instead said it in a mocking way, suggests that you were being hostile [21-Aug-19 08:32 PM] curi#0644 Had you communicated that you had a thin skin or a thick skin? [21-Aug-19 08:34 PM] Hopenager#1182 No [21-Aug-19 08:34 PM] Hopenager#1182 or at least not intentionally [21-Aug-19 08:35 PM] curi#0644 you had heavily communicated thick skin. [21-Aug-19 08:35 PM] Hopenager#1182 How so? [21-Aug-19 08:35 PM] curi#0644 one of the consequences of doing this is you're telling me not to be extra careful. but now you suggest i should have been extra careful. [21-Aug-19 08:35 PM] curi#0644 > when you tried to respond normally, it was lying by implication. it implied you didn't mind. [21-Aug-19 08:40 PM] Hopenager#1182 I didn't mean that you should have been extra careful with me. I'm still here, so clearly the level of carefulness you used was plenty. I meant that I thought you should have been more careful with people in general, so as to avoid alienating them. I didn't realize you used a level of hostility based on your evaluation of how thick my particular skin was, but if that's the case then that clears up my confusion. [21-Aug-19 08:40 PM] curi#0644 > I'm still here, so clearly the level of carefulness you used was plenty. that does not follow [21-Aug-19 08:41 PM] curi#0644 > I meant that I thought you should have been more careful with people in general, so as to avoid alienating them. you are changing the topic from your claim that i was hostile to, basically, advice that is unrelated to my goals and values. [21-Aug-19 08:41 PM] Hopenager#1182 Doesn't it? If you had been more hostile than I could handle without disengaging I wouldn't be engaging any more, but I am, so clearly you weren't overly hostile [21-Aug-19 08:41 PM] curi#0644 > I didn't realize you used a level of hostility based on your evaluation of how thick my particular skin was, i don't. i did not say that i did. you're bad at thinking literally. [21-Aug-19 08:42 PM] Hopenager#1182 What was the point of this question? `Had you communicated that you had a thin skin or a thick skin?` [21-Aug-19 08:42 PM] curi#0644 you still being here does not imply nothing is wrong or that you handled things successfully. [21-Aug-19 08:42 PM] Hopenager#1182 I assume you were saying that since I had communicated thick skin, you figured you could be hostile without fear of me disengaging [21-Aug-19 08:42 PM] curi#0644 the point of that question was to lead up to my comments re extra careful. [21-Aug-19 08:42 PM] Hopenager#1182 of course not [21-Aug-19 08:43 PM] curi#0644 of course not what? [21-Aug-19 08:43 PM] Hopenager#1182 of course not `you still being here does not imply nothing is wrong or that you handled things successfully.` [21-Aug-19 08:43 PM] curi#0644 i was contradicting you! [21-Aug-19 08:43 PM] Hopenager#1182 I did not say that me still being here implied that I handled things successfully [21-Aug-19 08:44 PM] curi#0644 > If you had been more hostile than I could handle without disengaging I wouldn't be engaging any more [21-Aug-19 08:45 PM] Hopenager#1182 I meant that *you* had handled things successfully, by choosing the proper level of hostility [21-Aug-19 08:45 PM] Hopenager#1182 but I understand now that that was based on a misinterpretation of what you were saying, so it doesn't matter any more [21-Aug-19 08:45 PM] curi#0644 by the text "I [Hopenager] could handle" you were talking about *my* (ET's) handling? [21-Aug-19 08:46 PM] Hopenager#1182 The "If you had been more hostile" part was talking about your handling [21-Aug-19 08:46 PM] curi#0644 you are logically lost [21-Aug-19 08:46 PM] curi#0644 so let's sum up: i was not hostile, but you are not good enough at logic to discuss the matter. [21-Aug-19 08:47 PM] curi#0644 given this situation, what can happen next? [21-Aug-19 08:47 PM] Hopenager#1182 I think we are talking past one another. But this isn't important anymore, I no longer stand by that message, it was based on a misunderstanding of what you were saying [21-Aug-19 08:48 PM] Hopenager#1182 I disagree that you were not hostile [21-Aug-19 08:48 PM] curi#0644 right, but you're incompetent to judge or discuss that matter, so you shouldn't have that opinion. [21-Aug-19 08:50 PM] Hopenager#1182 I don't agree that I'm too incompetent to discuss the matter. I also don't agree that if I were incompetent I shouldn't have an opinion, because I think that having ideas even when one is uninformed is a necessary first step towards becoming more informed [21-Aug-19 08:50 PM] curi#0644 you're up to ~10 logic errors, and you're resistant to fixing them on top of being bad at it. this is actually to be expected because you have not built up to this by doing easier conversations successfully. you haven't gone through a progression to get to the point where you can do this. [21-Aug-19 08:51 PM] curi#0644 also i didn't say that you shouldn't have an opinion. (that's another one.) [21-Aug-19 08:52 PM] Hopenager#1182 What opinion should I have had, if not that one? [21-Aug-19 08:53 PM] curi#0644 you have a pattern of problematic selective responses. [21-Aug-19 08:54 PM] curi#0644 does it really make sense to ask me to explain that matter to you at this time, given my sum up? [21-Aug-19 08:57 PM] Hopenager#1182 If you don't feel interested in answering you don't have to, but I don't agree with your sum up so it isn't really relevant [21-Aug-19 08:58 PM] curi#0644 in "it isn't really relevant", what does "it" refer to? [21-Aug-19 08:58 PM] Hopenager#1182 the sum up [21-Aug-19 08:59 PM] curi#0644 so you mean something like: Your idea is irrelevant because I disagree with it. ? [21-Aug-19 09:03 PM] Hopenager#1182 I meant that since I don't agree with your sum up, I am not going to stop asking questions just because you've asserted it [21-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 Suppose, hypothetically, that I've been right about everything in this discussion. What could I do to get through to you? [21-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 What would change your mind? [21-Aug-19 09:13 PM] Hopenager#1182 No idea, honestly [21-Aug-19 09:13 PM] Hopenager#1182 other than something vague like "a convincing argument" [21-Aug-19 09:13 PM] curi#0644 one of the basic ideas of rational discussion is to have an answer to that question. [21-Aug-19 09:13 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Does it happen often to you that you are accused of being hostile but you think you're not? [21-Aug-19 09:14 PM] Hopenager#1182 Out of curiosity, what would your answer be if I asked you the same question? [21-Aug-19 09:14 PM] curi#0644 cat, do you think your question is hostile? [21-Aug-19 09:14 PM] curi#0644 @Hopenager e.g. you could follow my paths forward policy. [21-Aug-19 09:15 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 Yes, I think you're hostile and the fact that you are so confused that you think you are not is even worse. [21-Aug-19 09:15 PM] curi#0644 ok, so you're being hostile on purpose. it's an open, conscious intention. [21-Aug-19 09:16 PM] curi#0644 not a slip up. not an old habit. but your actual goal. [21-Aug-19 09:17 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I don't like abusive people. Like imagine a teacher behaved the way you do toward a student. Forcing them to adapt how to communicate towards the teacher or receive hostile arguments. [21-Aug-19 09:17 PM] curi#0644 not being the puppet of memes without realizing it. you want to be hostile. [21-Aug-19 09:17 PM] curi#0644 that is inappropriate here. that is not what this chatroom is for. please stop or leave. [21-Aug-19 09:18 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 You are avoiding the question. Does it happen often that people find you hostile, and you did not intend to be? Either you lack social skills or you are intentionally hostile. [21-Aug-19 09:18 PM] curi#0644 would anyone object to me banning cat? [21-Aug-19 09:18 PM] curi#0644 @TheRatWay [21-Aug-19 09:19 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 ah censor too [21-Aug-19 09:19 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 I can leave on my own. but think about it [21-Aug-19 09:19 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 says a lot more about you than me [21-Aug-19 09:19 PM] Felix The Cat#3929 peace [21-Aug-19 09:27 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Well the point is moot now since he left. But I wouldn't have objected if that's what you thought was best. Cat unfortunately came in with intention to harm and not discuss. Ideally, he would have approached it in a problem solving manner instead. [21-Aug-19 09:27 PM] curi#0644 FWIW i rly dislike banning and intended to use the question – and the lack of objection by anyone – to pressure him into stopping and to communicate in a way that my polite request did not. i think it worked. [21-Aug-19 09:31 PM] Hopenager#1182 ```...you have not built up to this by doing easier conversations successfully. you haven't gone through a progression to get to the point where you can do this.``` How do you think I should go about doing this? The conversation we were having did not strike me as particularly hard, so how would I know if the conversations I'm having are easy enough to be successful? [21-Aug-19 09:32 PM] curi#0644 look for objective ways to judge instead of using your intuition, and ask ppl (both for their conclusions and some reasons) [21-Aug-19 09:33 PM] curi#0644 also do you know binary search? [21-Aug-19 09:35 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Popper said that it is not possible to speak in such a way in where you won't be misunderstood. Because our interpretation of what someone is saying is still a guess. All I can think of is to try to restate what has been said to see if an error occurred in the guessing process. [21-Aug-19 09:39 PM] Hopenager#1182 What are some objective ways to judge the difficulty of a conversation? Yes I know binary search [21-Aug-19 09:41 PM] curi#0644 length. nesting level of statements and replies. [21-Aug-19 09:41 PM] curi#0644 duration [21-Aug-19 09:41 PM] curi#0644 number of clarifications [21-Aug-19 09:41 PM] curi#0644 number of times anyone thinks there was a misunderstanding [21-Aug-19 09:41 PM] curi#0644 number of times anyone thinks there was a logic error [21-Aug-19 09:42 PM] curi#0644 re binary search: i suggest finding viable conversation difficulty by binary searching. i think it will work OK even if your intuition about what's hard and easy isn't very good. take the difficulty of this conversation, as you see it, and halve that. then the criterion for success is: *all* parties to the conversation agree it was successful. if that doesn't happen, halve the difficulty again. etc. [21-Aug-19 09:45 PM] curi#0644 if you draw a tree of a conversation and look at its structure (like how much branching and nesting, and just plain does it look like a messy diagram or not), and draw a time arrow through all the nodes (and see if that is convoluted or not), and also circle in red all the nodes where someone thought something went wrong, i think it'd show a lot. [21-Aug-19 09:45 PM] curi#0644 noting dropped/unresolved/open points is also good [21-Aug-19 09:46 PM] curi#0644 and look at the ratio of branches opened to resolved. [21-Aug-19 09:49 PM] curi#0644 our conversation i'd estimate was like 5/40 resolved/opened. [21-Aug-19 09:50 PM] curi#0644 there are a lot of judgment calls when doing the counting but if you're semi-consistent for how you count different conversations, and semi-reasonable, i think it'll come out useful. [21-Aug-19 09:50 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Sorry to interrupt but, > if you draw a tree of a conversation and look at its structure (like how much branching and nesting, and just plain does it look like a messy diagram or not), and draw a time arrow through all the nodes (and see if that is convoluted or not), and also circle in red all the nodes where someone thought something went wrong, i think it'd show a lot. Do you have by any chance a visual example of this? I am having difficulty visualizing it. [21-Aug-19 09:51 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613958309870960659/unknown.png [21-Aug-19 09:51 PM] curi#0644 http://www.ironcreek.net/syntaxtree/ {Embed} http://www.ironcreek.net/syntaxtree/ jsSyntaxTree jsSyntaxtree - a syntax tree generator for linguists. Draw syntax trees from labelled bracket notation phrases and include them into your assignment/homework. [21-Aug-19 09:51 PM] curi#0644 it'd be kinda like that with sentences or messages for the nodes. [21-Aug-19 09:52 PM] curi#0644 one of the big things that skilled ppl do in conversations is keep track of that tree in their head [21-Aug-19 09:52 PM] curi#0644 (or write it down as they go, but i don't know anyone who does that. i think it'd be a good idea tho.) [21-Aug-19 09:59 PM] curi#0644 other things that would change my mind re the conversation include: detailed textual analysis (like i did with DD's email attacking Rand on stream the other day, there are other examples too) up to my quality standards (which includes ~zero logic errors that i see, or at least ~zero in a major, approximately-autonomous sub-section of the analysis). or doing a conversation tree diagram (possibly just of a portion of it) and pointing out some of my errors using that. or for the lesser purpose of getting me to put more attention and effort into error correcting and reconsidering, just having anything to say that would (from my perspective) take me more than a couple seconds to be able to refute, something i see as challenging rather than the issue just being how to explain the confusions or whether i'd benefit more from doing something else that wasn't so repetitive and parochial. [21-Aug-19 10:00 PM] curi#0644 i try to converse to a standard of ~no errors. so any errors are surprising and notable. but ppl in general have conversations where they expect to make some mistakes. i think that means the conversation is too hard for them. it results in errors not being taken seriously and not mattering much or changing much. [21-Aug-19 10:01 PM] curi#0644 the higher standard is much bolder and easier to criticize. when ppl expect some errors, it make it unclear what it takes to get them to reconsider. [21-Aug-19 10:06 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I tried to make one for practice. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613962126641332234/unknown.png [21-Aug-19 10:12 PM] curi#0644 that is more freeform than each node (besides the first) having one parent node (attached above it) and some number of child nodes (attached below). freeform is generally more ambiguous about logical structure and involves more judgment calls. [21-Aug-19 10:14 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I think It makes sense to me if its just one person making a statement and you have nodes for each topic and subtopic. But a conversation still escapes me how to design one. [21-Aug-19 10:15 PM] curi#0644 to a loose approximation, it'd all be a vertical line for a simple conversation, and every tangent or topic change would branch off to the side. [21-Aug-19 10:16 PM] curi#0644 or sometimes ppl make multiple points. like they have 3 replies to something. so then that something would have 3 children. [21-Aug-19 10:17 PM] TheRatWay#9334 so a misunderstanding like in my example of misunderstanding a direction (misunderstanding a statement) would also branch of to the side? [21-Aug-19 10:17 PM] curi#0644 it gets complicated if u say X, i reply Y1, Y2, and Y3, and then for each of those you have 3 replies. now there are 9 topics. [21-Aug-19 10:17 PM] curi#0644 no sideways [21-Aug-19 10:21 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/613966010319503371/unknown.png [21-Aug-19 10:21 PM] curi#0644 [communism! [but-incentives [ppl-will-work-for-the-cause [no-ppl-r-selfish] [also-ppl-are-lazy [get-whips that-is-mean]]]] [but-freedom [earning-meals-is-wave-slavery doing-the-job-the-govt-says-is-actual-slavery]]] [21-Aug-19 10:31 PM] TheRatWay#9334 So earlier with your conversation with Hopenager you mentioned he had made about 10 logical errors. I was going to see if I could use this Tree idea to try to find them, but it seems like this method might make it harder not easier. [21-Aug-19 10:35 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Actually. Probably way overreaching. Topic has a lot of context I am unfamiliar with, mirror neurons, what dd thinks about them, what you think about them. What Hopenager thinks about them. How you think he was lying based on these things. Yeah I am definitely overreaching. I want to get better at spotting logical errors though. [21-Aug-19 10:47 PM] curi#0644 well i (partially) pointed several out as we went along. [21-Aug-19 10:48 PM] curi#0644 i think a tree could make it easier if you were already practiced with trees, but when they are a new thing then they make it harder cuz they are a distraction, an extra thing to worry about. [21-Aug-19 10:51 PM] curi#0644 I think the standard criterion for judging hostile comments to Joe is: does the comment make Joe look bad socially? I think Hopenegar uses that but doesn't know what he uses. [21-Aug-19 10:53 PM] curi#0644 That's why he can e.g. regard it as hostile to state that something is a lie *without it depending on whether or not it really was a lie*. [21-Aug-19 10:55 PM] curi#0644 separately, cat was signaling bad things *and* that he wouldn't want to talk about them from day 1. that's always awkward to deal with. [21-Aug-19 10:57 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Would you give me an example of a signal that he wouldn't want to talk about those bad things? [21-Aug-19 10:57 PM] curi#0644 shrug emoji [21-Aug-19 10:57 PM] curi#0644 that's like the only specific i remember offhand so i'm glad it answered the question heh. [21-Aug-19 10:58 PM] curi#0644 (i mean from b4 yest) [21-Aug-19 10:59 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Oh so he said bad thing X. and when you pointed that X is bad he just shrugged? [21-Aug-19 11:02 PM] curi#0644 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♂️ [21-Aug-19 11:02 PM] curi#0644 idk how to type it to search [21-Aug-19 11:03 PM] curi#0644 🤷 [21-Aug-19 11:04 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Yes I understood you meant the emoji. Was his use of it as a result of you pointing out a mistake he made? [21-Aug-19 11:05 PM] curi#0644 if you figure out how to search you can see examples [21-Aug-19 11:05 PM] curi#0644 can't discuss this from memory [21-Aug-19 11:05 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I found it. [21-Aug-19 11:05 PM] curi#0644 paste it [21-Aug-19 11:05 PM] TheRatWay#9334 >>> Justin: LT should work on her understanding of ideas rather than meme She doesn't want to though Memes first, fuck reason/discussion/criticism Felix The CatLast Monday at 7:39 PM 🤷 Live and let live is my motto! lot of bad stuff on Twitter and insta gram. ANti vaxers, flat earthers. etc.. [21-Aug-19 11:06 PM] TheRatWay#9334 the first part was said by Justin. I'll edit. [21-Aug-19 11:06 PM] curi#0644 when i copy that emoji it shows as colon shrug colon [21-Aug-19 11:06 PM] curi#0644 but it wont' come up in search [21-Aug-19 11:06 PM] curi#0644 discord sucks [21-Aug-19 11:07 PM] curi#0644 Pinned a message. [21-Aug-19 11:08 PM] curi#0644 i pinned the start of that conversation. cat first asks if ppl dont' like memes which is a non-commital way to ... actually i'll just stream this, it'll be easier [21-Aug-19 11:11 PM] curi#0644 https://youtu.be/pQZ21XGUPX0 {Embed} curi https://youtu.be/pQZ21XGUPX0 #23 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://elliottemple.com/ https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pQZ21XGUPX0/hqdefault_live.jpg [21-Aug-19 11:11 PM] curi#0644 say something in YT chat when ur listening [21-Aug-19 11:14 PM] curi bot#0000 New stream or video! #23 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZ21XGUPX0 {Embed} curi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZ21XGUPX0 #23 curi Streams Philosophy (Q&A, writing, commentary) https://elliottemple.com/ https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pQZ21XGUPX0/hqdefault_live.jpg [22-Aug-19 01:06 AM] curi#0644 ^ that link now has extensive analysis of the fallible cat discussion [22-Aug-19 01:11 AM] TheRatWay#9334 Thanks again. Really cleared up a lot. It also made me reconsider my trajectory. When I came in here I said I wanted to learn CR then Read Nietzsche. During my time here I have realized that CR is even more crucial. But I want to push Nietszche back a bit further down the pipe. Based on your recommended books I want to add Szasz as something to read after Popper and Deutsch, and instead of Nietszche maybe Jung. I think this a better path for my goals in psychology. [22-Aug-19 01:12 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Hopenager: > You could have accomplished the same thing in a non-hostile way by saying "From my perspective your previous message just sounds like 'I didn't realize I was supposed to make true statements'". [22-Aug-19 01:12 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Lots of people would interpret that as super hostile mockery too [22-Aug-19 01:13 AM] curi#0644 szasz mostly isn't about social dynamics FYI [22-Aug-19 01:14 AM] curi#0644 his basic thing is that psychiatry is an attack on freedom, reason and peace. [22-Aug-19 01:15 AM] curi#0644 also, i have read zero jung and not much psychology. that is not where i get the info i explained. it's mostly a combination of philosophy skill + explanations of social dynamics from pick up artist ppl. [22-Aug-19 01:15 AM] TheRatWay#9334 Yes he is telling Curi that he knows a better way to accomplish that thing. Anyway, this is the latest I've stayed up in months so I am quite tired. Good night everyone, Re: on Szasz. Ah Okay, well those things are still important, and the book on suicide looks intriguing. Anyway, good night. [22-Aug-19 01:16 AM] curi#0644 via jordan peterson i understand Jung to have some good info about symbolism in religious stories, myths, fiction, etc. which is neat but pretty different issues. [22-Aug-19 01:17 AM] curi#0644 related to that [22-Aug-19 01:17 AM] curi#0644 http://curi.us/1987-moana-review [22-Aug-19 01:17 AM] curi#0644 http://curi.us/1988-analyzing-how-far-ill-go [22-Aug-19 01:17 AM] curi#0644 http://curi.us/1989-frozen-comments {Embed} http://curi.us/1989-frozen-comments Frozen Comments female "equality" is a type of feminist social justice, and is a major theme in Frozen. let’s have 2 female leads and a weak man, and call it equality… uhhhhhhhh another major social ju [22-Aug-19 01:17 AM] curi#0644 also i have like 3 youtube videos analyzing pop songs [22-Aug-19 01:18 AM] curi#0644 > Yes he is telling Curi that he knows a better way to accomplish that thing. i think you misunderstood justin. justin meant that if i said that text, it could have offended hopenegar. he didn't mean that hopenager's advice to me was offensive. [22-Aug-19 01:18 AM] curi#0644 J meant the alternative wording is not at all socially safe. {Reactions} 👍 [22-Aug-19 01:19 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Ya [22-Aug-19 01:19 AM] curi#0644 it's actually not written well either. the "just" makes it ruder without adding value to the content. but also the quote part can easily be taken as mocking. [22-Aug-19 01:20 AM] curi#0644 i'd guess it's the quote part that J mainly was reacting to [22-Aug-19 01:20 AM] curi#0644 ppl will think obviously you should realize ur supposed to make true statements, so if u didn't u look like a fool, so that text is framing its target as being a fool [22-Aug-19 01:23 AM] JustinCEO#3132 People like to pretend the issue is you didn't say crit quite right. But they don't have a principled explanation of why X phrasing offends them but Y phrasing is okay. More than that, their claim that Y phrasing would have been fine frequently doesn't even make much sense according to social interpretation rules, much less reason [22-Aug-19 01:24 AM] JustinCEO#3132 If Hopenager would really have been okay with that rephrasing, maybe he's getting insulted in IRL social interactions without realizing it [22-Aug-19 01:24 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I guess it's just an excuse though, and he would have found his proposed wording an attack too, though maybe a bit less so? [22-Aug-19 01:24 AM] curi#0644 btw the issues of whether i said anything hostile or whether i said anything rude are separate issues. [22-Aug-19 01:25 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I'm not clear on that [22-Aug-19 01:25 AM] curi#0644 ppl mix those up. i remember dennis basically thot rude implies hostile. [22-Aug-19 01:25 AM] curi#0644 but like, rude is hard to avoid in various cases, and some of the rules about it are dumb [22-Aug-19 01:25 AM] curi#0644 so sometimes e.g. i just say shit i think is factual, bluntly, and ppl think that's rude. ok mb it's rude but that doesn't mean i'm hostile to them. [22-Aug-19 01:25 AM] JustinCEO#3132 is rude like social rules and hostility is actual attitude of a person [22-Aug-19 01:26 AM] curi#0644 that's a reasonable view [22-Aug-19 01:26 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Okay 👌 [22-Aug-19 03:39 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat > Does it happen often to you that you are accused of being hostile but you think you're not? [22-Aug-19 03:40 AM] JustinCEO#3132 This is an appeal to the authority of prevailing social attitudes masquerading as a question [22-Aug-19 03:41 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat thinks the answer is "yes" and this shows that Elliot is hostile [22-Aug-19 03:43 AM] JustinCEO#3132 But he didn't have the courage to say "I think people frequently accuse you of hostility when you think you are not being hostile, and that fact indicates the problem is you." [22-Aug-19 03:43 AM] JustinCEO#3132 That would be a direct, forthright claim [22-Aug-19 03:44 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat didn't wanna to make that [22-Aug-19 03:44 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Cat wasn't genuinely soliciting info [22-Aug-19 03:47 AM] JustinCEO#3132 If elliot said "no", Cat would probably think that elliot is lying. If elliot said "yes" or "why?" Cat would have his view confirmed [22-Aug-19 03:47 AM] JustinCEO#3132 So it wasn't a real question [22-Aug-19 03:48 AM] JustinCEO#3132 It was an attack that happens to be punctuated with a question mark [22-Aug-19 04:30 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Notable that Cat took issue with crit of Lulie memes [22-Aug-19 04:30 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Gives some indication as to quality of thinker her stuff appeals to [22-Aug-19 05:11 AM] AnneB#8275 Cat: > Does it happen often to you that you are accused of being hostile but you think you're not? Justin: > Cat thinks the answer is "yes" and this shows that Elliot is hostile > But he didn't have the courage to say "I think people frequently accuse you of hostility when you think you are not being hostile, and that fact indicates the problem is you." It's possible that Cat could have had a different kind of idea behind the question. Cat could have meant something like, “Oh, if other people also think you're hostile then maybe you don't have an unusual hostility towards me. You're not out to get me in particular, that's just how you are.” I don't know how likely this is. [22-Aug-19 05:34 AM] JustinCEO#3132 That sort of motivation for question would make sense for someone who was kind of fragile but trying to reassure themselves so that they could continue conversation productively, something like that [22-Aug-19 05:35 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I didn't really see anything from Cat to indicate that was his attitude [22-Aug-19 06:15 AM] AnneB#8275 I think curi said on stream #22 that people here other than Justin don't make videos of themselves doing FI stuff, and that they don't say why. So I'll say why I don't. [22-Aug-19 06:16 AM] AnneB#8275 Figuring out the technology is a barrier to me. [22-Aug-19 06:16 AM] AnneB#8275 I'm worried about privacy, voice recognition technology. [22-Aug-19 06:16 AM] AnneB#8275 I don't see how it would be much benefit to me. [22-Aug-19 06:52 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I'm happy to do minor tech consulting for free or major tech consulting for cash [22-Aug-19 06:52 AM] JustinCEO#3132 What specific privacy concerns do u have [22-Aug-19 06:52 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Elaborate re: voice recognition? [22-Aug-19 06:54 AM] JustinCEO#3132 You don't see value of feedback you might get from curi or others watching your vids and making comments? [22-Aug-19 06:54 AM] AnneB#8275 I'm worried about if in the future, people can tie my voice in present videos to my real name. [22-Aug-19 06:54 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Do you think curi commenting on my grammar vids on his stream is valueless for me? [22-Aug-19 06:56 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I still don't quite get the exact concern re voice recognition [22-Aug-19 06:59 AM] JustinCEO#3132 One thing is that I think you would need a sample of someone's voice definitely tied to their personal identity in order to search for stuff on YouTube to match up against that sample [22-Aug-19 06:59 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Some random internet person is unlikely to have such a sample [22-Aug-19 06:59 AM] JustinCEO#3132 The govt plausibly might. So is that the concern? Govt oppression [22-Aug-19 07:00 AM] JustinCEO#3132 That's what I mean by not getting exact concern. Like the scenario you are concerned about [22-Aug-19 07:01 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I guess maybe with smart phones everywhere people could conceivably just go around shazaaming people, recording their voice and trying to find matches online with some app that doesn't exist yet [22-Aug-19 07:03 AM] JustinCEO#3132 maybe people could contribute to a voiceprint database of known voices by making recordings and labeling people's voices without people's consent, and then you could scan YouTube vids against that database, like they do for music copyright [22-Aug-19 07:03 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Sounds like a big project and I think that would attract govt attention [22-Aug-19 07:08 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Anyways these are just some half baked thoughts. I will be interested in what curi says. But big picture, I think if a concern is stopping you from doing something, you should try and really think it through rigorously and carefully [22-Aug-19 07:08 AM] JustinCEO#3132 I don't think having some privacy concerns is unreasonable, but specific concerns might turn out to have criticism or there might be ways to solve the issue and still do the project [22-Aug-19 07:09 AM] JustinCEO#3132 You can change your voice btw [22-Aug-19 07:09 AM] JustinCEO#3132 Like with software [22-Aug-19 07:56 AM] Hopenager#1182 ```I think the standard criterion for judging hostile comments to Joe is: does the comment make Joe look bad socially? I think Hopenegar uses that but doesn't know what he uses.``` Nope. If I had made an embarrassing spelling error, and you had pointed it out, that would make me look bad socially, but I would not perceive it as hostile [22-Aug-19 07:57 AM] Hopenager#1182 ```That's why he can e.g. regard it as hostile to state that something is a lie without it depending on whether or not it really was a lie.``` Of course it doesn't depend on whether it really was a lie. Hostility is a matter of tone, not a matter of whether you claim is true [22-Aug-19 08:16 AM] JustinCEO#3132 @Hopenager what do you think about distinction between rudeness and hostility curi mentioned [22-Aug-19 08:33 AM] curi#0644 > If I had made an embarrassing spelling error, and you had pointed it out, that would make me look bad socially, but I would not perceive it as hostile do you understand that this is an unargued assertion? also what spelling error would be embarrassing but only if pointed out? [22-Aug-19 08:35 AM] curi#0644 hostility is *not a matter of tone*. you have absolutely no idea what the word means that you were trying to debate. [22-Aug-19 08:35 AM] Hopenager#1182 Justin, yeah sure I agree there's a distinction between the two. Using the distinction you said earlier, `is rude like social rules and hostility is actual attitude of a person`, I would say that curi's chats implied that he had a hostile attitude, not merely that he was rude [22-Aug-19 08:36 AM] curi#0644 also where is the *tone* to complain about in a blunt, minimalist statement like "X is a lie"? [22-Aug-19 08:38 AM] Hopenager#1182 curi, yeah it was an unargued assertion. A spelling error that would be embarrassing only if pointed out would be like if I made an error that people were unlikely to notice, but that when they did notice it would cast doubt on my familiarity with the subject matter, for instance. [22-Aug-19 08:39 AM] curi#0644 > Figuring out the technology is a barrier to me. i think this is a bad reason. your overall effort level for philosophy is high enough that it isn't a big barrier relative to that. [22-Aug-19 08:39 AM] curi#0644 > I'm worried about privacy, voice recognition technology. that's a real concern [22-Aug-19 08:39 AM] curi#0644 @Hopenager for example? [22-Aug-19 08:40 AM] curi#0644 > I don't see how it would be much benefit to me. this seems unreasonable. maybe you didn't give it much thought. or do you think that J and I haven't benefitted much from our videos? [22-Aug-19 08:41 AM] curi#0644 @Hopenager btw i'm only interested in an example you already had in mind, if any, when you made the original statement. [22-Aug-19 08:43 AM] curi#0644 > You can change your voice btw > Like with software idk how well present voice changes will defend against future software trying to do voice identification. maybe e.g. some will still work in the future but some won't. just making it sound different to ppl doesn't mean it'll fool algorithms [22-Aug-19 08:43 AM] curi#0644 however, one can make videos without talking. [22-Aug-19 08:44 AM] curi#0644 you could also use speech to text followed immediately by text to speech. that'd be privacy safe but probably iffy quality. [22-Aug-19 08:45 AM] Hopenager#1182 Imagine that I said I was an expert on some philosopher that most people hadn't heard of, but I made a glaring error in the spelling of the philosopher's name. Most people wouldn't know enough about the philosopher to notice, but if you were familiar with him, and you corrected my mistake, it would cast doubt on my claim that I was an expert on him, which would presumably be embarrassing [22-Aug-19 08:47 AM] curi#0644 @JustinCEO i guess some ppl she knows IRL, like friends, family and coworkers, have some videos that contain her voice. i guess she's maintaining ongoing associations with ppl who do not know some of her ideas and she plans to continue this indefinitely. while there is certainly a negative aspect to that, a downside, it could be reasonable in her situation, couldn't really comment without more info [22-Aug-19 08:47 AM] curi#0644 @Hopenager that is not an example, it's a category of example. i don't think you had in mind any actual situation. [22-Aug-19 08:49 AM] Hopenager#1182 Is it a problem that I gave a category of example rather than a specific one? I had that situation in mind before you asked the question, absent the detail that the specific the thing being named was a philosopher [22-Aug-19 08:51 AM] curi#0644 making unargued assertions about your exceptional rationality from a highly abstract perspective, without testing yourself in even one *imaginary* concrete scenario (to try to find out what your actual reaction is instead of what you would like it to be), is a bad method. doesn't work well. [22-Aug-19 08:52 AM] curi#0644 warning: i may leave at any time and may not continue this later. [22-Aug-19 08:54 AM] Hopenager#1182 That's fine, I don't think this conversation is going to be productive anyhow [22-Aug-19 08:54 AM] curi#0644 why? [22-Aug-19 08:58 AM] Hopenager#1182 Because I don't feel as though I've learned anything worthwhile in this conversation so far and I don't see any reason to expect that to change [22-Aug-19 09:02 AM] curi#0644 most of what happened is you answered one question. you were expecting a large, immediate benefit from that? [22-Aug-19 09:03 AM] curi#0644 was there a part of the conversation where you did something to try to get a benefit and it didn't work? [22-Aug-19 09:10 AM] Hopenager#1182 I meant to include our chats last night under "this conversation", not just the time we've been talking today [22-Aug-19 09:24 AM] curi#0644 oh, you don't value a conversation in which you received criticism which would be very valuable to you if true, and which you have not yet figured out how to evaluate correctly. [22-Aug-19 09:24 AM] curi#0644 (a correct evaluation method can go either way, it can agree or disagree, but you were unclear on what would result in you agreeing) [22-Aug-19 09:37 AM] curi#0644 and you didn't think it was worthwhile to learn about false exaggerations. maybe you'll find it worthwhile to know that your plan to stop doing them failed (I don't feel as though I've learned **anything**). and you also didn't think it was worthwhile to learn about the idea of considering what would change your mind in a conversation. [22-Aug-19 09:38 AM] curi#0644 planning to stop doing them here, but continuing, shows you have less control over your thought and action than believed. i regard that as a rather important and common thing. [22-Aug-19 09:39 AM] curi#0644 also a sign you may be wrong about more stuff than you realized. [22-Aug-19 09:44 AM] curi#0644 but it's hard for me to know what to point out, of the many options, because you yourself have not figured out what would convince you. [22-Aug-19 09:44 AM] curi#0644 but somehow you're putting blame on me! [22-Aug-19 09:45 AM] curi#0644 (i think. i don't recall you actually *saying* you're putting blame on me, but i take it as implied.) [22-Aug-19 09:56 AM] Hopenager#1182 I didn't learn anything about exaggerations other than that you dislike them. When did I exaggerate after saying I wouldn't? I don't recall doing so, but I certainly could have accidently [22-Aug-19 09:59 AM] curi#0644 > When did I exaggerate after saying I wouldn't? >> I don't feel as though I've learned anything [22-Aug-19 09:59 AM] curi#0644 ugh [22-Aug-19 10:00 AM] curi#0644 the markdown for quoting here is buggy [22-Aug-19 10:00 AM] Hopenager#1182 The word "worthwhile" is an important qualifier there. [22-Aug-19 10:00 AM] Hopenager#1182 I don't believe that's an exaggeration [22-Aug-19 10:01 AM] curi#0644 not a single tiny thing you learned was worth learning? [22-Aug-19 10:01 AM] curi#0644 you're sabotaging the discussion again [22-Aug-19 10:01 AM] curi#0644 you're putting effort into taking it in directions you won't like [22-Aug-19 10:02 AM] curi#0644 you won't be satisfied if you eventually concede this sub-branch. [22-Aug-19 10:02 AM] curi#0644 and you will have dodged the ones that would be more important to you [22-Aug-19 10:05 AM] curi#0644 > but it's hard for me to know what to point out, of the many options, because you yourself have not figured out what would convince you. then, ignoring that, he picks one that *would not* convince him to talk about. [22-Aug-19 10:09 AM] curi#0644 and he asked for an example after i'd already given it. [22-Aug-19 10:09 AM] curi#0644 he didn't recognize his own text [22-Aug-19 10:09 AM] curi#0644 despite the bolding [22-Aug-19 10:09 AM] Hopenager#1182 *she [22-Aug-19 10:10 AM] Hopenager#1182 I didn't recognize it because you misquoted me [22-Aug-19 10:10 AM] Khaaan#5168 Hopenager: What are some objective ways to judge the difficulty of a conversation? Yes I know binary search curi: length. nesting level of statements and replies. duration number of clarifications number of times anyone thinks there was a misunderstanding number of times anyone thinks there was a logic error re binary search: i suggest finding viable conversation difficulty by binary searching. i think it will work OK even if your intuition about what's hard and easy isn't very good. take the difficulty of this conversation, as you see it, and halve that. then the criterion for success is: all parties to the conversation agree it was successful. if that doesn't happen, halve the difficulty again. etc. if you draw a tree of a conversation and look at its structure (like how much branching and nesting, and just plain does it look like a messy diagram or not), and draw a time arrow through all the nodes (and see if that is convoluted or not), and also circle in red all the nodes where someone thought something went wrong, i think it'd show a lot. noting dropped/unresolved/open points is also good and look at the ratio of branches opened to resolved. our conversation i'd estimate was like 5/40 resolved/opened. there are a lot of judgment calls when doing the counting but if you're semi-consistent for how you count different conversations, and semi-reasonable, i think it'll come out useful. [22-Aug-19 10:10 AM] curi#0644 what misquote? [22-Aug-19 10:10 AM] Khaaan#5168 Hopenager: You didn't learn anything worthwhile from curi's answer there? [22-Aug-19 10:10 AM] curi#0644 that shows she's using a typical reading process. what ppl do is if they don't understand the purpose of some text, they often ignore it and just try to move forward while ignoring the problem. they don't come up with a viable interpretation of its purpose. this routinely sabotages discussions. [22-Aug-19 10:10 AM] Hopenager#1182 you removed the qualifier "worthwhile", which was obviously essential to the meaning of the claim [22-Aug-19 10:11 AM] curi#0644 you don't know what a misquote is [22-Aug-19 10:11 AM] curi#0644 i used consecutive words [22-Aug-19 10:12 AM] curi#0644 you're again trying to debate a minor sub-point where, if you lose, you won't find it worthwhile [22-Aug-19 10:17 AM] Hopenager#1182 Khaaan, no, I didn't find that very worthwhile, it didn't seem like a good suggestion. I don't plan to have "easy" conversation for the sake of learning rather than just discussing what I find interesting. Doing so sounds boring. And the suggested methods for determining the difficulty of a conversation do not seem better than an intuitive assessment [22-Aug-19 10:18 AM] curi#0644 why didn't you say any of that before? [22-Aug-19 10:20 AM] Hopenager#1182 You said many things after I stopped reading here last night, and I did not feel like responding to all of them [22-Aug-19 10:20 AM] TheRatWay#9334 >>> via jordan peterson i understand Jung to have some good info about symbolism in religious stories, myths, fiction, etc. which is neat but pretty different issues. [22-Aug-19 10:20 AM] Hopenager#1182 Because, as I've said, this conversation has not been very productive so far, so I didn't expect the effort to be worth it [22-Aug-19 10:21 AM] TheRatWay#9334 In addition I think there is some good things about personal transformation, and dealing with criticism (from self and other.) That may well be worth exploring. Could be a dead end but I still want to explore it when the time comes [22-Aug-19 10:21 AM] curi#0644 what would change your mind @Hopenager ? [22-Aug-19 10:21 AM] curi#0644 if you're wrong, how might you find out? [22-Aug-19 10:21 AM] curi#0644 or is this a situation where, if you're wrong, you will stay wrong? [22-Aug-19 10:22 AM] Hopenager#1182 What would change my mind about what? [22-Aug-19 10:22 AM] Hopenager#1182 about the productiveness of this conversation? [22-Aug-19 10:22 AM] curi#0644 about the important issues [22-Aug-19 10:23 AM] curi#0644 does it really matter which ones specifically? [22-Aug-19 10:24 AM] Hopenager#1182 Well yeah, it does. If you're just asking me in general how I hope to find out how I'm wrong, it's by being open to criticism and good arguments. To be more specific than that I'd need to know which specific issue you're asking about [22-Aug-19 10:24 AM] curi#0644 suppose i made good arguments, and my criticisms were true, but you didn't realize it. by what process does that get fixed? [22-Aug-19 10:25 AM] curi#0644 your method is basically to rely on your judgment, but where is the error correction mechanism in case your judgment is in error? [22-Aug-19 10:28 AM] JustinCEO#3132 @Hopenager You don't find the conversation productive and aren't open to suggestions regarding different approaches you could take to discussion. You want your current ideas about what sounds boring to authoritatively and conclusively guide your actions without even spending a couple hours seriously trying out a different approach/method. I don't think this is a rational approach [22-Aug-19 10:31 AM] Hopenager#1182 Curi, the method of error correction for my own judgement is the same, being open to criticisms about my judgement [22-Aug-19 10:32 AM] TheRatWay#9334 I'll like to try a guess for a method. (btw if interjecting between Curi/Justin teaching someone is bad etiquette please let me know) First assume fallibility, I assume I am probably wrong about most things. Take a criticism seriously, imagine how it would be different if I adopted that criticism, specifically if it would help me problem solve more. [22-Aug-19 10:32 AM] curi#0644 ok and what sort of thing might i say, at this point, which would get you to change your mind about your judgment of our conversation and my claims in it? [22-Aug-19 10:32 AM] curi#0644 what kind of criticism might work? [22-Aug-19 10:32 AM] Hopenager#1182 Justin, I am open to such suggestions. But the suggestions curi gave did not sound fun. I am not taking my current ideas about boringness go be authoritative, they could be wrong, of course. [22-Aug-19 10:33 AM] curi#0644 > (btw if interjecting between Curi/Justin teaching someone is bad etiquette please let me know) one of the advantages of text is everyone can talk at once. don't worry about it. if anyone cares that much they can use a real forum (curi or FI) [22-Aug-19 10:34 AM] Hopenager#1182 Curi, aren't you essentially asking me to make an argument against my own position? If I knew a good criticism of my judgement then I already would have taken it into account and changed my judgement [22-Aug-19 10:34 AM] Khaaan#5168 It's curi, not Curi {Reactions} 👌 [22-Aug-19 10:34 AM] curi#0644 can you give any *category* of what would work? [22-Aug-19 10:34 AM] JustinCEO#3132 @Hopenager What three specific things have you done to get criticism on your boringness ideas [22-Aug-19 10:35 AM] TheRatWay#9334 Thank you Alisa. I had not noticed. [22-Aug-19 10:37 AM] Hopenager#1182 curi, sure: a good argument about why it wouldn't be boring to do what you're suggesting, and why it would instead be fun or interesting [22-Aug-19 10:38 AM] curi#0644 it would be fun and interesting because you would find that you make much more progress. it being effective would lead to the fun and interest. [22-Aug-19 10:41 AM] Hopenager#1182 I don't think that the lack of progress in this conversation has been the result of it being too "difficult". Going back to the beginning, I suspect this conversation could have been quite productive if you'd stayed on the topic of mirror neurons instead of questioning my motives and calling me a liar [22-Aug-19 10:45 AM] TheRatWay#9334 I noticed that you play Dota. I don't play that game but I have played a similar game (LOL) and maybe I can give an analogy that might be useful. So often times new players will atempt to play the game and learn it by starting with a very mechanically demanding character(champion). They *think* that the "easy" characters are boring and not worth their time. However, if they were to start with an easy character and *really* focus on learning with easy steps. They would soon realize just how much they were missing and how fun it can be. Small things like mastering last hitting, wave manipulation, reading opponent movements, reading the map, prioritizing objectives etc. However, people often go for the flashy looking champion and neglect all those things, and are usually stuck in the lower tiers for a long time and never learn. [22-Aug-19 10:46 AM] curi#0644 who plays dota? i don't [22-Aug-19 10:46 AM] TheRatWay#9334 meant for Hopenager I beleive I saw on the side that he was playing dota [22-Aug-19 10:47 AM] curi#0644 @Hopenager you're moving the goalposts. the issue was why, in general, would a particular approach to learning and discussion be fun and interesting? i answered. my answer, in short, is that it will be those things *if* it's effective, so the issue hangs on its effectiveness. your response is not to the point. [22-Aug-19 10:48 AM] curi#0644 you were questioning and objecting to the wrong aspect of the suggestion. you were mistaken. [22-Aug-19 10:48 AM] Hopenager#1182 I dont play dota, but I have been playing dota undelords, which is different game of a similar name so I get the confusion. But I understand your analogy [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] Hopenager#1182 I just don't agree that the reason for lack of progress here is the inherent difficulty of the topic [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 i don't expect you to appreciate the corerction even though it's the exact one that you said would change your mind in a major way. [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 > I just don't agree that the reason for lack of progress here is the inherent difficulty of the topic that literally is not what we were talking about. [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 you are not being logical [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 > curi, sure: a good argument about why it wouldn't be boring to do what you're suggesting, and why it would instead be fun or interesting [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 > I just don't agree that the reason for lack of progress here is the inherent difficulty of the topic [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 read these together [22-Aug-19 10:49 AM] curi#0644 you do not have the skill you think you have. [22-Aug-19 10:50 AM] curi#0644 i just explained this and you doubled down on this error. [22-Aug-19 10:52 AM] curi#0644 @TheRatWay i agree re dota example. common thing and relevant. [22-Aug-19 10:56 AM] curi#0644 you also made another false exaggeration: "I just don't agree that [...]" (the "just") [22-Aug-19 10:56 AM] Hopenager#1182 You said that following your suggestion of having conversations would be interesting and fun because it would be more effective. I was contradicting that claim, by saying that the lack of effectiveness of this conversation isn't caused by the inherent difficulty of the topic, so trying to have an "easier" conversation wouldn't necessarily solve the effectiveness problem [22-Aug-19 10:56 AM] curi#0644 you are arguing a second, separate topic which is not what you asked for [22-Aug-19 10:57 AM] Hopenager#1182 It is a related topic [22-Aug-19 10:57 AM] curi#0644 if you thought it woudln't be fun *because* it wouldn't be effective, you should have questioned the effectiveness not the fun. [22-Aug-19 10:57 AM] curi#0644 but you brought up the fun issue. was that a mistake? [22-Aug-19 10:57 AM] Hopenager#1182 that is what I'm doing [22-Aug-19 10:58 AM] Hopenager#1182 no, it wasn't a mistake to bring up fun. The reason that effectiveness is relevant in the first place is because of it's relationship to fun [22-Aug-19 11:00 AM] curi#0644 you don't think that whether my suggestion would *work or not work* is relevant on its own, directly? [22-Aug-19 11:00 AM] curi#0644 you think that's only relevant via its consequences for fun? [22-Aug-19 11:03 AM] Hopenager#1182 That may be relevant on its own too. But I think it made sense to bring up the other issue as well, since it was relevant and helped explain my position [22-Aug-19 11:04 AM] curi#0644 > That may be relevant on its own too. do you think it is or isn't? you're hedging. [22-Aug-19 11:04 AM] curi#0644 this appears to be a standard social way that ppl try to avoid admitting they were wrong, which is contrary to CR. [22-Aug-19 11:05 AM] curi#0644 both in terms of the anti-error-correction aspect and also Popper's advice about sticking your neck out and bold claims that are easy to refute. [22-Aug-19 11:08 AM] curi#0644 the hedged concession was immediately followed by a topic changing excuse. that also appears to be standard social status competition behavior. [22-Aug-19 11:09 AM] curi#0644 if Hopenegar does not know enough about social dynamics to respond directly and to the point about those issues, without further explanation, then it's an indication she also doesn't know enough to judge whether she's doing them. [22-Aug-19 11:11 AM] curi#0644 that is: i would expect the person with the skill to not do those social things would also be able to explain why that appearance happened, show understanding of the standard interpretation while denying it, and also offer an alternative interpretation. they'd be conversant in the issues. actually the skill needed to not do it is considerably more (on avg – yes there's variation) than the skill to talk about it. [22-Aug-19 11:14 AM] curi#0644 separately > What are some objective ways to judge the difficulty of a conversation? and > Khaaan, no, I didn't find that very worthwhile, it didn't seem like a good suggestion. I don't plan to have "easy" conversation for the sake of learning rather than just discussing what I find interesting. Doing so sounds boring. And the suggested methods for determining the difficulty of a conversation do not seem better than an intuitive assessment none of these objections claim that my answer *to the question asked* was incorrect. so hopenegar didn't find it worthwhile to receive a correct answer to the question she asked? was it a bad question? was the lack of worthwhileness her fault because she made a mistake? did she ask for information she didn't want, then blame me for her not getting what she wanted out of the conversation? [22-Aug-19 11:30 AM] curi#0644 >> That may be relevant on its own too. > do you think it is or isn't? you're hedging. the AFK timing, while it could be a coincidence, does not appear to be. she hedged because she wanted to hedge. she didn't want to make a clear statement. she was avoiding making a clear statement. then she AFKed rather than make a clear statement. she didn't see a way to continue the conversation and continue hedging in this way. [22-Aug-19 11:31 AM] curi#0644 what usually happens in situations like this is the person can rationalize the AFK timing b/c e.g. they are busy. but what's typical is they were also busy earlier in the conversation and did not leave. often the pressure to stop (cuz busy, other stuff to do) escalates, but only gradually, and the actual AFK timing is due to a non-gradual escalation where there is a particular statement the person dislikes in some way. [22-Aug-19 11:32 AM] curi#0644 also what usually happens if i write this kind of analysis is the person doesn't want to talk about it *or* the original issue. but i think it's interesting and beneficial to others as well, and i think the social pressure to suppress the analysis is bad. [22-Aug-19 11:34 AM] curi#0644 this is not reliable. maybe her boss caught her on her phone at just that moment. but it's likely in our cultural context. [22-Aug-19 11:34 AM] curi#0644 it shouldn't be offensive (*even if* her boss caught her on her phone just then). it's reasonable, objective, impersonal analysis. but ppl get really offended by this sort of thing. [22-Aug-19 11:35 AM] curi#0644 and they get extra offended if, in this particular case, they had a compelling reason to leave at that moment unrelated to the conversation. [22-Aug-19 11:35 AM] curi#0644 even though that has no rational bearing on how i should analyze, and i already took it into account. [22-Aug-19 11:36 AM] curi#0644 but in that scenario it generally feels to them like i was *wrong* moreso than if they had no good excuse for leaving at that particular timing. so they get more aggro about it [22-Aug-19 11:36 AM] curi#0644 (they wouldn't be very good at poker. seriously. and that's a real thing about poker, most ppl suck at that kind of analysis) [22-Aug-19 11:37 AM] curi#0644 (good poker players are like "i made the right play because it maximized my mathematically expected winnings if i made that play a trillion times in that situation". and it does not matter at all whether they actually win the hand or lose it. but most ppl focus a lot on the actual hand outcome to judge the play.) [22-Aug-19 11:38 AM] curi#0644 (ppl get extra confused also by 1) incomplete information. like estimating hand ranges for opponents and getting that wrong even tho it was the best estimate to make given the info. that seems different to them, and more mistaken, than a game of chance where you have complete information. 2) hands where the expected value of your play is negative.) [22-Aug-19 11:59 AM] Hopenager#1182 You're right that I was hedging, and I should have know it would be a bad idea to do that in this discussion. I agree that the question of whether or not your suggestion would work was relevant. [22-Aug-19 11:59 AM] curi#0644 so when you said: > The reason that effectiveness is relevant in the first place is because of it's relationship to fun you were mistaken? (emphasis on the first "the") [22-Aug-19 12:01 PM] Hopenager#1182 Yes, though I would stand by the claim if it were modified to have a "main" after the first "the" [22-Aug-19 12:01 PM] curi#0644 you think that whether something works is not a main issue about it? [22-Aug-19 12:02 PM] Hopenager#1182 it was not the main issue of the conversation [22-Aug-19 12:02 PM] curi#0644 the issue was not conversational relevance but the relevance of ideas to other ideas. [22-Aug-19 12:16 PM] curi#0644 given that you've now agreed you made some errors that i detected, does it seem conceivable to you that you may have made, say, 50% or more of the errors i thought i detected yesterday? [22-Aug-19 12:17 PM] curi#0644 and if so, would you regard those errors as important and be highly interested in learning more? or not? [22-Aug-19 12:18 PM] curi#0644 and if so, what might convince you that's a realistic enough scenario to investigate, rather than one to ignore b/c you didn't find the conversation productive enough in which that problem may have been caused by your own errors. [22-Aug-19 12:23 PM] curi#0644 separately, you have not established that i made any error. if you could do that, it could be some kind of indication i was wrong about some of my claims. is there any point you think is especially clear where you'd be able to do that briefly? [22-Aug-19 12:24 PM] curi#0644 i would appreciate a conceptual correction (as against e.g. a typo) [22-Aug-19 12:25 PM] curi#0644 i find it amazing that ppl will give up on discussions without establishing objectively that the other guy was wrong about anything. but they do all the time. really typical. and they often do it without even *claiming* that they objectively established it. [22-Aug-19 12:27 PM] curi#0644 some ppl claim that really carelessly. they just assert it. but the somewhat better ones don't want to claim that. to claim it somewhat reasonably, they have to be able to point objectively at various arguments they made that they claim were adequate and claim they addressed all concerns and objections and that it meets the standards that rationally should be enough. and often the conversation doesn't resemble that at all. there is nothing in that ballpark that happened. [22-Aug-19 12:28 PM] curi#0644 they have to say "i made a adequately full and complete case that X. it consisted of the following points i made. and i addressed your first 7 questions and then i pointed out the error in the *pattern* of ad hoc questions you were asking rather than address additional questions individually" [22-Aug-19 12:28 PM] curi#0644 something like that [22-Aug-19 12:29 PM] curi#0644 then one can reasonably think they did enough. but ppl are content to move on without even *trying* to do that. [22-Aug-19 12:31 PM] curi#0644 i'm not saying that pointing out one error like that is sufficient. it better be an important error or something. and really the key issue is the lack of error correction (which is an important error pretty regardless of what the first error is). but pointing out one error like that is *necessary*. if you don't, what you did is insufficient. if you don't objectively make the case that anything the other guy said is wrong, it's unreasonable for you to dismiss them. [22-Aug-19 12:31 PM] curi#0644 some ppl think they have such a case in their head. but then they are hiding it from criticism. and the 7 questions (or criticisms and counter-arguments) part didn't happen properly in that case. [22-Aug-19 01:14 PM] curi#0644 (to be clear: comments and interjections and whatever *from anyone* are welcome) [22-Aug-19 01:14 PM] curi#0644 (i think lots of what i said is of general interest) [22-Aug-19 01:24 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I was reading some of the links you provided last night. One analysis (I think done by Alan) stood out to me. It looked at a short paragraph from Percival (Facebook CR) and found a bunch of analogies to violence. I do recall reading that particular exchange and the manipulation and appeals to violence and authority went right past me without notice. [22-Aug-19 01:25 PM] curi#0644 the analogizing of discussion/debate and violence is common 😦 [22-Aug-19 01:25 PM] curi#0644 it's even more common in politics [22-Aug-19 01:25 PM] curi#0644 we must "fight" for our guy to win the election! [22-Aug-19 01:27 PM] curi#0644 pointing it out has been a theme in the FI community for many years. i wonder who started it [22-Aug-19 01:29 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I don't know where I read that Wittgenstein threatened Popper with violence when he could not win via arguments. [22-Aug-19 01:29 PM] curi#0644 it was with a "poker" if you wanna google it [22-Aug-19 01:36 PM] alanforr#8510 Popper's account of the poker incident is in Section 26 of "Unended Quest". {Reactions} 👍 [22-Aug-19 01:59 PM] AnneB#8275 Another problem I have with making a video of myself doing FI is that I am imagining it getting posted on youtube where anyone could run across it. Most people wouldn't know the context of what I was doing. When I post in FI places, whatever I write is within the framework of the FI list/blog/discord. I suppose I could put something in the description to explain. [22-Aug-19 02:00 PM] AnneB#8275 What kinds of things have people gotten out of making videos of themselves doing philosophy that they wouldn't have gotten out of just writing about it? Or that they wouldn't have gotten out of recording themselves and not sharing it with anyone else? [22-Aug-19 02:20 PM] curi#0644 You can do unlisted videos that ppl only reach via direct link [22-Aug-19 02:21 PM] AnneB#8275 I didn't know that. [22-Aug-19 02:24 PM] curi#0644 re benefits u can e.g. see some feedback justin got on my stream [22-Aug-19 02:24 PM] internetrules#7964 >1:25 PM] curi: the analogizing of discussion/debate and violence is common . . . 1:27 PM] curi: pointing it out has been a theme in the FI community for many years. i wonder who started it i remembered you saying something about a tweet and about people treating criticism as punches, rather than as gifts. so using basic google fu i just looked up "site:curi.us gift punches" and was able to find it in the second result. google fu is useful. [22-Aug-19 02:25 PM] AnneB#8275 curi, do you mean Justin got feedback on something he said on a video that he didn't write anywhere? [22-Aug-19 02:27 PM] AnneB#8275 Or was it more like feedback on his process? [22-Aug-19 02:30 PM] curi#0644 both i think. but didn't u watch some and see for yourself? that's why i wasn't specific. [22-Aug-19 02:31 PM] AnneB#8275 I watched but didn't remember what kinds of things he got feedback on. [22-Aug-19 02:43 PM] AnneB#8275 I think I have my hands full with grammar so I don't want to take on the project of figuring out how to make videos now. It wouldn't be trivial for me to get started with that. It doesn't seem very important to me. But maybe I'm wrong? [22-Aug-19 02:45 PM] curi#0644 up2u. re feedback i won't try to answer. justin will have a better perspective on it [22-Aug-19 02:51 PM] JustinCEO#3132 > 5:20 PM] curi: You can do unlisted videos that ppl only reach via direct link > [5:21 PM] AnneB: I didn't know that. [22-Aug-19 02:52 PM] TheRatWay#9334 curi wrote, >>> Some lies don't involve a conscious effort to deceive at the time they are told. For example, you might knowingly tell a lie a bunch of times, but then start saying the same thing habitually without consciously thinking about the fact that it's a lie. Do you think it's reasonable to count that as a lie? Another issue is when someone doesn't make a reasonable effort to find out if something is true or false. If you say something is true, then (in many contexts) you imply you made some reasonable effort to consider and investigate whether it's true or false. You're saying your belief that it's true was the result of a thought process, and you're implying various things about the nature of that thought process. If you didn't make that effort – e.g. if you just said it carelessly/thoughtlessly but in a writing style suggesting you gave it careful consideration – then I think it's a lie. Does that make sense to you? Even if the person didn't consciously think this all through? [22-Aug-19 02:52 PM] JustinCEO#3132 @AnneB if you were super eager to explore the idea of making videos you'd figure out a ton of ways to deal with various objections you have. And maybe you would still have objections that survive, but you'd have a different perspective on the project than you have now, and I think that would be good. [22-Aug-19 02:53 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Last paragraph is not meant to be quote. I don't know how to keep that from happening. [22-Aug-19 02:54 PM] JustinCEO#3132 @TheRatWay if you try and edit the message, is there a ">" on the same line as the stuff you *don't* want quoted OR the blank line preceding that stuff? [22-Aug-19 02:55 PM] TheRatWay#9334 The way I wrote it was >>>(Pasted curi's message) then shift enter enter my message. but it included my message as part of the >>> quotes. [22-Aug-19 02:55 PM] Khaaan#5168 @TheRat: Do you believe it's possible to lie by implication? It looks to me like curi is talking about an instance of that. [22-Aug-19 02:56 PM] JustinCEO#3132 heh Rat now it's under quoted [22-Aug-19 02:56 PM] TheRatWay#9334 well that made it worse. Sorry. Fixing it [22-Aug-19 02:56 PM] JustinCEO#3132 np [22-Aug-19 02:58 PM] JustinCEO#3132 @AnneB re: videos I think it'd be worth trying to at least get to some level 2 objections instead of being like "my level 1 objections win, i'm not doing it" [22-Aug-19 02:59 PM] JustinCEO#3132 by level 1 and 2 i mean like, level 1 = first set of crits of doing project u think of. then you refute those, but then come up with some more. those are level 2 [22-Aug-19 03:00 PM] JustinCEO#3132 if nothing else, even if u don't make videos, doing this will take u from [22-Aug-19 03:00 PM] JustinCEO#3132 > But maybe I'm wrong? [22-Aug-19 03:01 PM] JustinCEO#3132 to [22-Aug-19 03:01 PM] JustinCEO#3132 saying (confidently): "I've thought about it carefully, and have other priorities right now." [22-Aug-19 03:11 PM] TheRatWay#9334 So that went form bad to worse in regards to clarity.(also got a phone call in the middle of this) I'll restate my interpretation of curi's quote above, As I understand it curi is explaining the difference between a mistake and a lie. If I make a statement X, and X is false, and I did not make the effort to find out the truth, then I am lying. Even if I am not consciously trying to deceive. However, If I state X after making a reasonable effort, then it is a mistake not a lie. Did I interpret that correctly? [22-Aug-19 03:11 PM] curi#0644 (not caught up, saying my own stuff): lying is common. lying *without consciously realizing it* is common. hop being hostile to that type of criticism – about a common problem that ppl are commonly blind to having – is bad. i do not expect putting this perspective on it to fix it. but ppl should want to know if they might be lying. they should be enthusiastically seeking out info of that nature. it should be a high priority. [22-Aug-19 03:11 PM] curi#0644 see also https://rationalessays.com/lying [22-Aug-19 03:12 PM] curi#0644 hop was adversarial today in a carryover from yesterday after lying, yesterday, that certain things were OK. [22-Aug-19 03:12 PM] curi#0644 this came up WRT having a lie pointed out and WRT her unreasonable and illogical claim about handling everything fine and still being here implying it's fine. [22-Aug-19 03:13 PM] curi#0644 WRT the first lie which i pointed out, she proceeded in a manner which implied that was fine, but was actually holding a grudge about it which she brought up later. the rational thing to do is address it at the time if you have a problem with it. but she does normal social conflict-hiding. [22-Aug-19 03:14 PM] curi#0644 then is unhappy that ppl like me do not act according to the preferences she has but won't state [22-Aug-19 03:14 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Oh sorry I did not make it clear. The context of your quote was from the email in where you asked if people could spot LT's lies on that facebook post. Someone asked why you were using the word "lie" vs the word "mistake." And the quote above was your answer. [22-Aug-19 03:15 PM] curi#0644 how can that work in general? b/c everyone is or is expected to be approximately the same in a variety of ways. e.g. ~everyone hates being caught lying, whether in fact they lied or not, either way. so the standard of interaction she's used ot, which is normal, is to treat ppl based on their assumed preferences instead of stated ones, so they don't have to state things like "i am closed minded about potential lying by me" [22-Aug-19 03:15 PM] curi#0644 so ppl treat each other by stereotypes, by assuming everyone is conventional. this pushes ppl to *be* more conventional, b/c they get treated like it either way, it makes it harder to be anything else. [22-Aug-19 03:16 PM] curi#0644 and ppl punish you if you do anything different. e.g. hop being unhappy with me for following FI forum norms – which she never asked about or tried to understand – instead of those standard social norms. [22-Aug-19 03:16 PM] curi#0644 and ppl routinely ignore my explicit, direct, clearly stated requests to be treated certain unconventional ways, e.g. to be told true statements instead of biased, false exaggerations [22-Aug-19 03:17 PM] curi#0644 ppl typically see making a request about how you're treated, or expressing a preference about it, as admitting weakness (and/or trying to control them) and they attack you for it rather than trying to help. [22-Aug-19 03:17 PM] curi#0644 separately, hop ... fuck i had a MAJOR other point. i just need a tiny trigger and i'll remember it all. hmmm [22-Aug-19 03:20 PM] curi#0644 remembered. ppl ignore lots of what others say. when hop didn't recognize the quote of herself from a few minutes earlier, the main issue wasn't the failure to recognize it (which is one sign, of many, of lack of discussion experience and skill). the main issue was not asking what the text was. she had no viable theory of what that text was for and proceeded as if it wasn't there or didn't matter. this is very standard. ppl do this with each other all the time. if they think some text doesn't make sense or is dumb, they will try to ignore it and respond to other stuff. [22-Aug-19 03:21 PM] curi#0644 this is, in general from a universal perspective, irrational. one needs a non-refuted theory of what the other person is saying to respond to. without one, one should seek clarification. if you don't, you are causing misunderstandings. and a lot of the misunderstandings will be hard to trace back to what you did. they will be all over the place and you won't know their source. happens a ton. affected lots of my conversation with hop. came up all over in ways that are hard to identify. [22-Aug-19 03:22 PM] curi#0644 there are some reasons ppl do this. the idea of actually understanding everything the other guy is saying is more work. but if you're going to have a conversation it's worth doing it effectively instead of doing it badly to save effort (so you're sabotaging the effort you do put in). and ppl see it as effort with low rewards b/c they often talk with dumb ppl who say a bunch of dumb, pointless, confused stuff. [22-Aug-19 03:23 PM] curi#0644 in the short term, their conversations seem to improve when they ignore most of the crap instead of responding to all of it (which just gets them even more crap in reply, in the sub-topics they're creating, and it spirals out of control) [22-Aug-19 03:24 PM] curi#0644 however, they make mistakes when judging what's crap – and those mistakes are systematically biased, not random (they have blind spots and keep ignoring some of the info they most need). so even if the mistakes are uncommon, they're still a big deal. and it does cause a lot of the misunderstandings in the discussion that they blame on the other guy being dumb. and their discussion method is unsuitable for talking with good, worthwhile ppl who aren't saying crap. and it's hard to turn off and change methods. [22-Aug-19 03:25 PM] curi#0644 and their method results in them not understanding what ppl are like, b/c they've spent their life not thinking about a lot of what ppl say to them. [22-Aug-19 03:25 PM] curi#0644 this results in misunderstanding the world as well as e.g. being friends, spouses or business partners with the wrong ppl [22-Aug-19 03:26 PM] curi#0644 this is part of the general issue of whether or not to *accept error*, and just try to put up with it, or whether to only ever use ideas that you don't know any errors with. [22-Aug-19 03:27 PM] curi#0644 when you don't understand why someone said something, there is an error in your understanding of their communication. if you try to ignore this, you're not doing rational problem solving and you're undermining the whole project of the discussion by inserting contradictions, errors, cracks, flaws, etc, into the foundation (later discusion will build on it) [22-Aug-19 03:28 PM] curi#0644 if you think an error is tangential, you can say so and see if the other person agrees. (say you think X *might* be an error, but you think it can be disregarded either way, whoever is right, b/c of being off-topic, and see if the other person agrees or not) [22-Aug-19 03:29 PM] curi#0644 this is a major way that smart ppl cause the confusions and problems in their conversations with dumber ppl. a way the smarter guy bears a lot of the fault. i think smart ppl do this more b/c they see more dumbness. however, dumb ppl do it plenty too, partly b/c they just find it too hard to figure out what stuff means and they gave up on clearly understanding much during childhood. [22-Aug-19 03:29 PM] curi#0644 we have a clear example of hop doing this and i suspect she did it at least 10 other times. [22-Aug-19 03:30 PM] curi#0644 if i'm right and have good points and whatever, her actions – ignoring parts she doesn't understand – would prevent her from finding out and learning. [22-Aug-19 03:30 PM] curi#0644 it causes major chaos b/c i don't know *which* parts she didn't understand. it's hidden from me. [22-Aug-19 03:31 PM] curi#0644 so i can't try again to explain those parts. and then when i build on something she didn't understand, she often won't tell me about that problem either, she'll ignore that too. [22-Aug-19 03:31 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Btw your Lying essay answered my question. [22-Aug-19 03:33 PM] curi#0644 so there are basically all these errors throughout the discussion that i don't have much information about, i don't know where they are. from my perspective, there are a bunch of *random* errors being inserted into what happens. that's really hard to deal with. basically the only way to deal with random errors is with generic, general purpose methods. i can't target the specific misunderstandings if they are silently ignored. so what does that leave? try to get better at thinking in general, start with easy conversations and work your way up, be extra careful all the time. stuff kinda like that. which hop is hostile to doing. she doesn't want an extra layer of error-correction added to the conversation at every single step, but what else would work given all the errors chaotically throughout it? [22-Aug-19 03:34 PM] curi#0644 in the alternative, if i'm wrong, hop ignoring a bunch of chunks of what i said will *also* sabotage the discussion. it'll make it much harder for her to figure out where i'm going wrong and give relevant criticism/corrections. it'll make it a lot harder for her to figure out a decent model of what i'm thinking. [22-Aug-19 03:34 PM] curi#0644 when i try to *not* do this – not ignore problems – hop finds it burdensome and pedantic. dislikes it. [22-Aug-19 03:34 PM] curi#0644 (as is super typical, this isn't rly about hop individually) [22-Aug-19 03:35 PM] curi#0644 her basic attitude is the attitude of the overreacher: dealing with all the problems is too hard. there are too many. fixing them all is an overwhelming, unrealistic goal. give up and live with error and try to focus on some good bits and dodge the errors. [22-Aug-19 03:36 PM] curi#0644 if you actually deal with error, it saves *so much* time in the long (and medium) run, and makes everything so much easier. [22-Aug-19 03:36 PM] curi#0644 but only if you deal with it successfully, and most ppl are bad at that so when they try to deal with error (they do try it sometimes) they often have a bad experience. [22-Aug-19 03:45 PM] curi#0644 that kind of symmetry – doing X will work out well regardless of which claims are correct, you can explain in both cases how it'll get a good result – is a standard property of rational methods. [22-Aug-19 03:47 PM] curi#0644 > Last paragraph is not meant to be quote. I don't know how to keep that from happening. put a blank line btwn paragraphs [22-Aug-19 03:50 PM] curi#0644 > As I understand it curi is explaining the difference between a mistake and a lie. If I make a statement X, and X is false, and I did not make the effort to find out the truth, then I am lying. Even if I am not consciously trying to deceive. However, If I state X after making a reasonable effort, then it is a mistake not a lie. Did I interpret that correctly? it depends on context. that's correct in general, that's how the default context works. by default in our culture, if you claim X, you are implying that you did some reasonable process to gain that knowledge, rather than just making it up. [22-Aug-19 06:45 PM] TheRatWay#9334 That makes sense. Adding to what I wrote based on your essay, if you qualify it with "I haven't done enough research but I think..." is also a way to avoid lying. As long as it is not a form of hedging to avoid sticking your neck out. [22-Aug-19 06:47 PM] curi#0644 ya [22-Aug-19 08:45 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Have you seen this article? https://medium.com/@trishankkarthik/why-universality-trumps-iq-f8a685ce0fbe {Embed} https://medium.com/@trishankkarthik/why-universality-trumps-iq-f8a685ce0fbe Why universality trumps IQ Bottomline: Universality fairly easily leads to the conclusion that humans anywhere out of the left tail are fundamentally the same… https://miro.medium.com/max/1024/0*mF_YK9F7brpV9hXi [22-Aug-19 08:48 PM] curi#0644 > The problem is that there is a countably infinite number of such machines, one for every computable real number. (Countably infinite just means as big as all of the counting numbers you learned in kindergarten.) [22-Aug-19 08:50 PM] curi#0644 he doesn't know what he's talking about there. like really out of his depth. that means he's arrogant and doesn't know his own weaknesses or limits. [22-Aug-19 08:50 PM] curi#0644 like he knows way less than introductory parts of the wikipedia articles on this stuff, and he's just wrong [22-Aug-19 08:52 PM] curi#0644 his main claim is that *computational universality* makes ppl equivalent, which is, in short, wrong [22-Aug-19 08:53 PM] curi#0644 by the same argument, a dog is just as intelligent as me [22-Aug-19 08:53 PM] curi#0644 b/c a dog also has a universal computer for its brain [22-Aug-19 08:53 PM] curi#0644 microwaves have them too. [22-Aug-19 08:56 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Dang. I thought he was making a similar claim as DD on the Jump to Universality. Out of all the concepts in BOI, I'd say I have the least grasp of is Universality. Was hoping this was an article that got close to what DD argued from a different place. [22-Aug-19 08:57 PM] curi#0644 computational universality is known by a lot of ppl but DD adds a lot more [22-Aug-19 08:57 PM] curi#0644 DD realized there are *other types* of universality [22-Aug-19 08:57 PM] curi#0644 it's a more general concept, not just a thing about computers [22-Aug-19 08:59 PM] curi#0644 does he say anything about the *jump*? haven't read it all [22-Aug-19 08:59 PM] curi#0644 he's just wrong that computational universality means anyone can understand any idea. if that worked, my Mac could too, and so could a mouse. [22-Aug-19 09:00 PM] curi#0644 these are not difficult examples to think of and see if what ur saying makes sense. they might look that way if you don't know the field, but he knows enough about computer stuff to think of examples of universal computers like that. [22-Aug-19 09:01 PM] TheRatWay#9334 No. He doesn't mention a jump to. Just explains why humans are universal and why that matters more than IQ [22-Aug-19 09:01 PM] curi#0644 you need the jump argument or else might a person be 99% of universal? why does it have to be the full thing? [22-Aug-19 09:03 PM] curi#0644 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304082867384745994/614308636327673864/unknown.png [22-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 > So, who should care about IQ? Nobody! Why? Because we are universal! [22-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 this and other wording indicates he thinks there is only one type of universality [22-Aug-19 09:04 PM] curi#0644 whereas FI ppl always label the type, e..g universal computer, universal explainer, universal constructor, universal integer number system [22-Aug-19 09:05 PM] curi#0644 mb not always. sometimes drop the label based on context – if talking about the same one repeatedly. [22-Aug-19 09:06 PM] curi#0644 he doesn't seem to be consider that the functionality of a human depends on what software they run on their universal computer [22-Aug-19 09:08 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I see. Humans are both Universal explainers and constructors right? [22-Aug-19 09:09 PM] curi#0644 explainers yes. constructors are tricky b/c humans don't like to follow orders about what to construct. [22-Aug-19 09:12 PM] curi#0644 the large images and video embeds in the medium post are social climbing stuff, not intellectual [22-Aug-19 09:14 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I didn't see what they are. They are incompatible with my privacy and anti tracking addons. [22-Aug-19 09:14 PM] curi#0644 heh [22-Aug-19 09:16 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Have you seen (listened to) The Artificial Creativity Podcast? [22-Aug-19 09:17 PM] curi#0644 Dennis is a fraud who doesn't want public criticism to reveal it. [22-Aug-19 09:20 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Oh no. I didn't catch the misconceptions on my first few listens. [22-Aug-19 09:20 PM] curi#0644 i've talked with him directly a lot [22-Aug-19 09:20 PM] curi#0644 he won't let me show you chatlogs though [22-Aug-19 09:21 PM] curi#0644 it was mostly in a chatroom with 20 ppl where ppl normally will give permission to publicly quote anything interesting or important. [22-Aug-19 09:22 PM] curi#0644 after some criticism re discussion and learning methodology – topics he did not want to consider – he said he would only reply to me on a phone call, and he would not give me permission to record and publish the call. then i asked if i could share the recording with just my friends from the chatroom, like justin and alan, who were already privy to the conversations and criticisms anyway. he said no and made it clear that the reason was he didn't want to risk looking bad. [22-Aug-19 09:23 PM] curi#0644 he complained that FI didn't help him with AGI enough but he never wrote a single substantive post about AGI for ppl to reply to [22-Aug-19 09:23 PM] curi#0644 he said he would, but didn't [22-Aug-19 09:23 PM] curi#0644 he also said he'd learn YESNO, and some other epistemoloyg, but did not follow up. [22-Aug-19 09:24 PM] curi#0644 after he got mad re methodology criticism, he left and is intentionally avoiding saying anything substantive somewhere that FI ppl might criticize it, b/c he's so reputation focused. [22-Aug-19 09:24 PM] curi#0644 he doesn't value criticism. he hates it. [22-Aug-19 09:25 PM] curi#0644 he tries to use DD's ideas that he doesn't really understand how to use [22-Aug-19 09:25 PM] curi#0644 like he will claim stuff is hard or easy to vary, cuz he thinks that's a good argument, but he's bad at saying why. [22-Aug-19 09:25 PM] curi#0644 or comparing its variability to the variability of any of the alternatives being discussed [22-Aug-19 09:26 PM] curi#0644 this could all be fixed if he wanted to learn, but he prefers to pretend that he's already a top expert [22-Aug-19 09:26 PM] curi#0644 this is all very typical [22-Aug-19 09:26 PM] curi#0644 tho most ppl don't admit as much about how public reputation oriented they are [22-Aug-19 09:26 PM] curi#0644 the conversations were a bit similar to the Hopenager stuff [22-Aug-19 09:27 PM] curi#0644 including me writing a large amount of interesting stuff by myself afterwards, which he then didn't want to discuss [22-Aug-19 09:28 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Well that's unfortunate. Popperian in appearance only. Shaking the anti-criticism mentality is a tough one. [22-Aug-19 09:28 PM] curi#0644 we talked about the importance of transcripts to make it easier to respond to material seriously. last time i checked, he'd intentionally not made them for his podcast, after previously saying they were a good idea. i think the reason was that he doesn't want us to comment. [22-Aug-19 09:28 PM] curi#0644 same reason he didn't even post a single podcast link to FI after making them [22-Aug-19 09:30 PM] curi#0644 prior to those conflicts he had spent months doing ~zero [22-Aug-19 09:31 PM] curi#0644 that's really typical too. ppl just kinda don't do much to learn or make progress after saying how super interested they are [22-Aug-19 09:32 PM] curi#0644 shortly b4 quitting he said how much he appreciated that i was making explanations of CR/DD/ET epistemology ideas available, and making it possible to get one's questions answered and get criticism to facilitate learning. [22-Aug-19 09:32 PM] curi#0644 one day ur one of the most important ppl who is doing this great service for the world. a few days later he won't speak to you and doesn't want any service. [22-Aug-19 09:33 PM] curi#0644 i haven't checked but i assume he uses some of my ideas about AGI, that i shared with him, in order to sound smart on the podcast [22-Aug-19 09:33 PM] curi#0644 which would be a betrayal [22-Aug-19 09:36 PM] curi#0644 lulie contributed to him leaving by pretending there is an alternative non-FI group of smart ppl to interact with, and by her various snipes at FI which he read some of. [22-Aug-19 09:37 PM] curi#0644 also my negative opinion of her was itself one of his pieces of evidence to decide that i must be unreasonable [22-Aug-19 09:38 PM] curi#0644 (he made this judgment without any counter-arguments to the LT analyzing lies discussion material. i think he maybe just didn't read any of it.) [22-Aug-19 09:40 PM] curi#0644 it's hard for ppl to have it halfway and agree with half of FI's ideas and half of the mainstream conventional stuff. that's unstable, inconsistent, and doesn't really work. unless they are passive and the FI part is just lip service and abstract theory that they don't do much with. there is a choice to make, sides to pick/take, and most ppl have some normal things they are really committed to and don't want to go against or view badly. [22-Aug-19 09:40 PM] TheRatWay#9334 That's really unfortunate. Interest in CR is small as it is to be divided due to social posturing. 😦 [22-Aug-19 09:40 PM] curi#0644 it's like a big thing tho to have major criticisms of your society [22-Aug-19 09:41 PM] curi#0644 lots of ppl say they want that, they are so brave and willing to rebel, but mostly they don't really want it, not too much, just within certain limits [22-Aug-19 09:43 PM] curi#0644 there are common patterns like [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 Q: how can u disagree with lots of experts and authorities and geniuses, and think ur right? [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 A: which of their arguments refutes what i'm saying? [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 [no answer] [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 or [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 Q: how can u think ur great? [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 A: who's better? [22-Aug-19 09:44 PM] curi#0644 [won't give a single name b/c then that person's material could be criticized] [22-Aug-19 09:45 PM] curi#0644 ppl's rationalizations for conformity are dumb [22-Aug-19 09:48 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Do you think its okay to play the game as long as you're aware that you're playing it. Like go through the classes that will let me get the necessary certification to do what I want. [22-Aug-19 09:48 PM] curi#0644 short answer: no [22-Aug-19 09:48 PM] curi#0644 who has ever succeeded that way? [22-Aug-19 09:48 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Even if most is not that useful, but on my own learn philosophy to be useful instead. [22-Aug-19 09:49 PM] curi#0644 it's hard enough without a double life. it's hard enough consistently and honestly. it's too hard with the huge extra burden. [22-Aug-19 09:49 PM] curi#0644 and why would you want to impress ppl you do not respect? [22-Aug-19 09:49 PM] curi#0644 what for? [22-Aug-19 09:49 PM] curi#0644 there are easier ways to get money [22-Aug-19 09:51 PM] TheRatWay#9334 > who has ever succeeded that way? I can't think of an example. What about like when David was promoting his book, he wouldn't always confront his interviewer when they said incorrect things. > and why would you want to impress ppl you do not respect? what for? Not impress. Just get through the certifications. Their approval is not my desire, but the licensing. [22-Aug-19 09:51 PM] curi#0644 certification or licensing for what? [22-Aug-19 09:51 PM] curi#0644 you don't need a license to think or write. [22-Aug-19 09:51 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Therapist [22-Aug-19 09:51 PM] TheRatWay#9334 To be a clinical Psychologist you need a license [22-Aug-19 09:52 PM] curi#0644 i bet you can be a "life coach" or something – and do basically the same work – with no credentials. [22-Aug-19 09:53 PM] curi#0644 > What about like when David was promoting his book, he wouldn't always confront his interviewer when they said incorrect things. yeah that has worked out badly for him. [22-Aug-19 09:54 PM] curi#0644 it made him stand out less. i bet he gave up a piece of his soul and it actually reduced his fame level. [22-Aug-19 09:54 PM] curi#0644 did you see my stream where i wrote criticism of his email attacking Ayn Rand? [22-Aug-19 09:55 PM] TheRatWay#9334 > i bet you can be a "life coach" or something – and do basically the same work – with no credentials. I don't like this but I can't articulate why. [22-Aug-19 09:59 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I think, I want to help people turn their lives around in a positive manner that is more long lasting. Life coach I've seen is a lot of fads, fad diets fad ideas. It strikes me as shallow but I haven't looked too much into life coaching. [22-Aug-19 10:01 PM] curi#0644 whether it's long lasting depends on what help someone wants and what you do, not on your job title. [22-Aug-19 10:01 PM] curi#0644 it depends on what sorta clients you find and what sorta advcie you give. [22-Aug-19 10:01 PM] curi#0644 most therapy is not effective long term. [22-Aug-19 10:01 PM] curi#0644 it's easier to get long term clients if you advertise in a typical way for attracting them, but ppl expecting typical therapy are very hard to help much [22-Aug-19 10:02 PM] curi#0644 most ppl don't actually want to *learn* to think better and their problems are caused by their irrational thinking [22-Aug-19 10:02 PM] curi#0644 this is what i deal with all the time [22-Aug-19 10:02 PM] curi#0644 conventional therapy is basically a bunch of shortcuts and bandaids that partially work for common problems [22-Aug-19 10:03 PM] curi#0644 but if it were more fundamentally wise, it'd be philosophy and it'd deal with issues like error correction [22-Aug-19 10:03 PM] curi#0644 there's no fundamentally separating how to think and giving ppl help with their problems. thinking is what determines their success and failure with their problems. [22-Aug-19 10:04 PM] curi#0644 ppl are systems of ideas. in the longrun what ppl need is epistemology. to have a separate thing to help it has to differentiate itself by e.g. being more focused on current culture or on short term solutions. [22-Aug-19 10:05 PM] curi#0644 BoI talks about how all our problems are soluble with the right knowledge. [22-Aug-19 10:06 PM] curi#0644 so ppl ought to get better at creating knowledge – learning [22-Aug-19 10:07 PM] curi#0644 but the therapy tradition works more like: ask 10 million ppl what their problems are. find patterns. give some advice. try to see what seems to help some. find patterns in that. repeat that advice to more ppl. [22-Aug-19 10:07 PM] curi#0644 there's a lot of pragmatism [22-Aug-19 10:07 PM] curi#0644 (which i mean as a technical philosophy term) [22-Aug-19 10:08 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Definitely don't want to go with that approach (ask millions find pattern). I agree epistemology is essential. [22-Aug-19 10:09 PM] curi#0644 what ppl expect from a therapist is that he's a few steps ahead of them on familiarity with their typical problems [22-Aug-19 10:09 PM] curi#0644 they're really bad at knowing why they do things or how to stop being such as asshole or whatever. so the therapist just has to be a bit more knowledgeable about that stuff than the client is. [22-Aug-19 10:10 PM] curi#0644 there are also well known tactics they use for when they don't know anything useful [22-Aug-19 10:10 PM] curi#0644 like getting the client to talk a lot or just finding a different client [22-Aug-19 10:10 PM] curi#0644 they say it just doesn't work for everyone [22-Aug-19 10:10 PM] curi#0644 or there is a style clash or whatever [22-Aug-19 10:11 PM] curi#0644 and ppl are bad at reading books and applying what they read to their own situation which is just slightly different than the example in the book [22-Aug-19 10:12 PM] curi#0644 so a major thing therapists do is they learn a few books worth of advice and then are able to customize it just slightly to tell ppl how it applies to them. a lot of ppl have a lot of problems very similar to the typical ones, so this isnt' that hard. [22-Aug-19 10:12 PM] curi#0644 the therapist has the advantage of a bunch of practice, experience and training. he puts way more work into it so he can be a bit better at it. [22-Aug-19 10:12 PM] curi#0644 compared to his clients. [22-Aug-19 10:15 PM] curi#0644 also the large majority of clients do not want to change much. they want *limited*, *bounded* help. they don't want to make infinite progress anymore than felix cat does. [22-Aug-19 10:16 PM] curi#0644 this makes it much easier for the therapist. he can help them rationalize their problems and pay lip service to wanting to change. he can legitmize and authorize that. [22-Aug-19 10:16 PM] curi#0644 he can say he's smart and wise and hang credentials on the wall and dress the part and have an impressive office and whatever and then tell the guy it's not his fault or some other message ppl like like that [22-Aug-19 10:19 PM] curi#0644 also helping unimportant ppl with parochial problems, even if it works, doesn't change much in the world, it doesn't matter much. it's small. like it could be good, just like growing an apple is productive, but it doesn't address the big issues like free trade or CR or the underlying causes of why ppl have the problems they do (like school and parenting practices). [22-Aug-19 10:20 PM] curi#0644 as long as parents and teachers are churning out broken ppl. helping them be a bit less broken is like pouring water into a leaky bucket. [22-Aug-19 10:20 PM] curi#0644 a better analogy, i guess, is standing by a guy who is taking brand new toys and smashing them, and then you partially repair some of them. [22-Aug-19 10:22 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Yes I agree there's a lot of unnecessary, avoidable suffering. What I want to do would not address the causes, just alleviate. But I can't help fix the issue myself. [22-Aug-19 10:22 PM] curi#0644 a lot of ppl go to therapy b/c they want someone else to take responsibility for their problems. and therapists don't really do that, but they often ambiguously pretend to. [22-Aug-19 10:22 PM] curi#0644 > But I can't help fix the issue myself. what do you mean? [22-Aug-19 10:23 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I think a lot of what Peterson says is a form of putting personal responsibility on the client [22-Aug-19 10:23 PM] curi#0644 he also says a lot of the opposite [22-Aug-19 10:23 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I mean, as you mention schools keep breaking spirits. I can't for example stop that. [22-Aug-19 10:24 PM] curi#0644 he blames a lot of ppl's problems on diet or physiological issues to be addressed by drugs [22-Aug-19 10:24 PM] curi#0644 > I mean, as you mention schools keep breaking spirits. I can't for example stop that. why not? i mean it's a big problem but do you think you couldn't make any progress on it at all if that was your goal? [22-Aug-19 10:26 PM] TheRatWay#9334 That seems way too big a problem for me to handle. I wouldn't even make a dent. Nor do I have a clue on how I would go about making any progress there. [22-Aug-19 10:27 PM] curi#0644 i think a lot of ppl think that and then they all don't do anything [22-Aug-19 10:27 PM] curi#0644 do you think this makes a dent? https://www.stopk12indoctrination.org [22-Aug-19 10:29 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I do not know who they are and what impact they have had. [22-Aug-19 10:30 PM] curi#0644 i think u don't know much about the problem or what it'd take to make any change to it. i don't think you're in a position to make the evaluation that you did without a bunch of research and preliminary involvement to understand the matter better. [22-Aug-19 10:32 PM] TheRatWay#9334 The evaluation that I couldn't tackle that problem? Yes it was a gut reaction so I agree with all that. [22-Aug-19 10:32 PM] curi#0644 ya that one [22-Aug-19 10:32 PM] curi#0644 there are other very important problems btw like life extension [22-Aug-19 10:33 PM] curi#0644 that area is really underfunded and underresearched and is a matter of life and death to you and to me. [22-Aug-19 10:35 PM] TheRatWay#9334 When you say life extension. Do you mean like cure to various diseases or some of the work of people like Aubrey de Grey? [22-Aug-19 10:35 PM] curi#0644 trying to stop ppl from dying of aging, like AdG [22-Aug-19 10:36 PM] TheRatWay#9334 I see. Very ignorant about what he's doing, just recognize his name. [22-Aug-19 10:44 PM] TheRatWay#9334 Hehe. Everytime I visit the discord, my to read list or topic to look into list grows by like 20. Which is fantastic. Off to bed. Gnite.