Hugo and Jake
politics-and-debate
Politics and religion, Science, and other heavy topics can be discussed here. No shitposting. Slowmode is on, so take your time communicating.

NOTE ABOUT THIS CHATLOG: All messages by curi were deleted by a moderator, by accident, because Discord defaults to deleting message history when banning a user and there's no "undo" possible. Discord is very badly designed. The ban was given with zero warning or explanation. The ban was decided by "the boss", apparently Jake, who had not said a single word in the conversation.

Elions 03-Mar-19 06:50 PM
@curi How so?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 06:50 PM
Also, fun fact about ayn rand. She wrote atlas shrugged over the course of three nights without sleeping high on drugs. And it shows.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 06:51 PM
Also my views of ayn rand can be summed up with the word bioshock.
Rose 03-Mar-19 06:51 PM
gee he just made a joke about a book
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 06:51 PM
factsdontcareaboutyourfeels?
anyway it was clearly a joke, chill. Make yer point
Elions 03-Mar-19 06:52 PM
I've watched the video and I have some knowledge on Rand's libertarian roots, yeah
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 06:52 PM
What did they misinterpret about ayn rand (edited)
Elions 03-Mar-19 06:52 PM
@curi I asked you how was she misrepresented, could you answer, please?
Okay, so you don't have an actual answer, got it
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 06:54 PM
Ok, can you present in what way was rand anti-libertarian? (edited)
you should probably define terms before you continue. And you can take your time.
Nobody is asking you sum it up to a few key words or something, you can write an entire paragraph if you want
Elions 03-Mar-19 06:56 PM
I don't think we'll get much more out of the conversation. 's pretty clear he's not interested in it
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 06:57 PM
it seems she said she's against a full on anarco-capitalist system
k. cool. what's the point exactly? is it just a correction of a fact they got wrong or are you making some kind of point yourself.
Rose 03-Mar-19 06:59 PM
Elions 03-Mar-19 06:59 PM
I didn't ask you to do that, though
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 06:59 PM
Well it still dosen't change the fact libertarians often don't know that about ayn rand.
Elions 03-Mar-19 06:59 PM
I asked you in what way was she misrepresented in the part of the video you were talking about
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 06:59 PM
Like most people like that just get idolized and the "myth" of the person becomes mroe valuable than the people themselves.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:00 PM
Dude i think the hard to talk one here is you? You've been pretty defensive from the get go
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:00 PM
Pretty much
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:00 PM
People are allowed to insult anyone here if they want to. Insulting ayn rand is not exactly a bold statement anyway....
Dude you know how a public chatroom works right? (edited)
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:01 PM
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:01 PM
From the page you linked, emphasis my own: Q Libertarians advocate the politics you do, so why are you opposed to the Libertarian Party? AR They’re not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which can’t be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. Most of them are my enemies: they spend their time denouncing me, while plagiarizing my ideas. Now it’s a bad sign for an allegedly pro-capitalist party to start by stealing ideas. FHF 74] ---- My analysis below ---- From this, it's clear that Rand is not opposed to libertarian philosophy, she was opposed to the individuals that make up the party. Furthermore, Rand was opposed to religions, so the religious leanings of Libertarian party were obviously not something she would support. But, according to Rand herself, the Libertarian party plagiarized her ideas, so I think it's fair too say that Rand held a Libertarian philosophy, even before the libertarian party did. (edited)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:02 PM
lol
so based on that it seems like she's more against the party itself and not libertarianism the ideology.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:03 PM
Correct
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:03 PM
i still fail to see how that matters? ayn rand is dead
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:03 PM
Oh sorry. ima edit
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:03 PM
Presenting an idea with a quiet voice does not make it any more or less valid. Same as if someone was being harsher with their tone
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:03 PM
the ayn rand people talk about is the mythologized version that libertarians jerk themselves off to sleep
as an aside can i just point out the sheer arrogance of naming a philosophical ideology "OBJECTIVISM"
Rose 03-Mar-19 07:04 PM
I mean what she called herself doesn't matter as much as what her ideas represent, which is a huge reason for the libertarian support she got despite denouncing them
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:05 PM
I mean you can be a libertarian socialist.
Politically.
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:06 PM
They both seem to be under the same umbrella
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:06 PM
I don't know much about libertarian socialism
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:06 PM
If you think even the Libertarians are not defenders of capitalism, then you've got to be incredibly hard line
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:06 PM
It seems like it'd be incompatible with objectivism though?
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:07 PM
Yee, the socialism part would be a bid no-no to Rand
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:08 PM
Ayn rand was full of shit
I know, but i wanted to say it so eh
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:08 PM
Just a heads up, you can actually share a video and have it start from a specific point
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:08 PM
i don't have any reverence for Ayn rand
Rose 03-Mar-19 07:09 PM
I made a good point grr
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:11 PM
It took you almost 30 minutes to finally state your issue
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:11 PM
yay, cake. Champagne. (edited)
And i don't mean there's something wrong with long responses, i mean it took you 30 minutes of red herrings and being super defensive to get to your point
hmmkay
i'm still confused what your angle is. Is it just that you were correcting a fact jake got wrong?
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:13 PM
It just seems like you want to feel persecuted for the sake of it, to be honest
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:13 PM
Or you could've just started with that instead of sharing the video and saying they got it wrong
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:13 PM
I assume he conflated libertarians with ayn rand herself
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:14 PM
The video isn't even about Ayn Rand, it's about Peterson's book
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:14 PM
Not excusing factual errors, but i assume that's where it came from
Yeah i mean you could have just... posted a link to the video and say "at around the 34 min he got this point wrong: ayn rand said x and y"
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:14 PM
@curi Criticism does not immediately denote hostility. Same as someone asking a question about your point of view
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:14 PM
instead you got pissy someone make an insult joke about ayn rand
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:15 PM
When you share a YouTube video you can click the thing that says "share link at current time" or whatever so when someone clicks the link the video is already at the relevant part.
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:16 PM
I'm watching the part of the video right now. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree wholeheartedly with your conclusion here.
I think you may need to rewatch the series
Largely because if what you just saw was flaming according to you, I feel like you may not have even been paying attention to the videos at all
As for where, it was your claim. The burden of proof is on you to prove it was flaming, not on me to prove it wasn't
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:17 PM
Maybe they interpret any criticism of queen god empress Rand as flaming? (edited)
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:17 PM
You pointed me to an area of the video claming it was flaming, I looked at it and didn't see any of it.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:19 PM
I find it funny you came in and got pissy about someone making a joke and interrupting the discussion when your link was posted in the middle of a discussion that was going on beforehand
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:20 PM
and you had to take 30 minutes of whining about how people were hostile or some shit before actually making the point lol
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:20 PM
@curi I did read the quote, and to make a proper opinion on it I rewatched the whole segment. They literally talk about how she tackles the fact that there are different perceptions just a minute prior
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:20 PM
^^^ they're trying
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:20 PM
If you'd have actually watched the video, the quote mine wouldn't be neccesary.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:20 PM
and you're not responding
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:21 PM
Like I said, you gave me a point in the video and a claim. I took a look and I think your claim is wrong.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:21 PM
what elions is actually saying right now maybe? i dunno man
Elions knows things, talk to elions.
He's the most knowledgable of furries.
the Furry Seer
i'm pretty sure they were just talking about one aspect of ayn rand's objectivism?
or atleast the popular perception of that part of objectivism
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:22 PM
ah fuck, I just noticed that you are two different people, but with similar names.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:22 PM
He said earlier in the video that he was trying to truncate it as much as possible
Like, if you had to sum up objectivism in one sentence, what would it be?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:22 PM
Because it isn't a video about Ayn Rand Objectivism
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:22 PM
@curi They can't go into a full 30 minute presentation as to what ayn rand's objectivism is every time they reference it. You may want to actually consider the content, lenght and discussion in context before claiming someone has been misrepresented
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:23 PM
It's a video about jordan peterson lol
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:23 PM
I thought that was part of reasoning
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:23 PM
they made a secondary comment about objectivism
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:23 PM
I can't be sure, as I'm not in your head, but I feel like you're using this to stop from thinking about the content in the video so far
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:23 PM
^^^^^^
it smells like centrist-y nitpicking to dismiss a person's entire argument.
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:24 PM
I mean, yeah, they openly say the ideology of objectivism is bad, though that's their analysis so far
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:24 PM
And ideas dont' deserve reverence or respect just for existing
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:24 PM
That's their point of view on the topic, and they go on to explain it. What's odd or bad about that?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:24 PM
sometimes mockery of ideas is fine. Again, this isn't a video talking about ayn rand and why they think she's wrong
this is a video about jordan peterson and they brought up objectivism at some point briefly.
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:24 PM
Wait, so you dislike Peterson, but you like Rand?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:24 PM
You are asking they derail their video on a chapter of JBPs book to do an in depth coverage of Ayn Rand's Objectivism
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:25 PM
k, cool, but for some reaosn it seems you're getting mad at the fact that jake is not a fan of objectivism. And libertarians.
and have been super defensive all throghout anyway
lol... mean to a dead person
oh no, the horror of being mean to someone who is dead.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:26 PM
And Elions has stated he disagrees with you
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:27 PM
why are you so butthurt they don't like ayn rand?
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:27 PM
@curi I'm going to be frank here: no ammount of crying is going to change my view on the fact that your claim was very clearly disproven by the point in the video you sent me yourself
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:27 PM
elions has made a point you're not addressing
are you fucking kidding me.
Elions 03-Mar-19 07:27 PM
And, while I'm not a mod, I think it'd be best if you stopped flooding the chat with the topic
I'm gonna stop responding now since I don't think we'll get anything more out of this beyond more self-victimization.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:29 PM
Explain at the very least the bulletpoints of ayn rand's objectivism.
and also not every poltiical commentator and philosophjer has to be taken seriously.
I wonder if you'd feel the same way about a criticism of karl marx tachanka intesifies (edited)
k, let me adress the easiest point
3rd: self interest is not always a good basis for ethics in my view. (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:30 PM
Drop a comment or question in the #ask-hugo-and-jake sections asking them to correct it if you think they need too
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:31 PM
Sometimes what is best for people goes against my self-interest. Especially in the short term
it wouldn't really be in your self-interest if you're for example a cis person who supports lgbtq rights. You're probably not gonna find out you're actually trans
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:32 PM
The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life. The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:32 PM
it's morally good because trans people are people and they're entitled to respect the same as other people
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:32 PM
I disagree with these two points whole heartedly
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:32 PM
yeah i disagree with laissez faire capitalism also.
I think capitalism is prone to abuses that benefit a few arleady rich people and hurt arleady poor people
and i don't think it's in justified ways. So that's why i support putting limits and regulations on capitalism
I mean honestly i don't know if i even support capitalism at all (edited)
I don't know enough to say
also i don't thbink reality exists as an objective absolute, i think that's just a necessary "basic" assumption (edited)
or was it basal assumption
"Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life." so much nope.
a level of self interest is fine, even healthy, but it has to be kept in check with for example empathy.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:36 PM
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:36 PM
i think creating a society where the most amount of people have the highest achievable wellbeing is preferable. (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:37 PM
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:37 PM
a society where we also make sure people don't get away with hurting others unnecessairly
I think i support some hierarchies, i doubt we'd thrive in anarchy
but still i'm against authoritarianism
authorities should serve the people, not the other way
so yeah atleast 3 out of 4 of the points in what you linked i disagree with (edited)
and i dunno if i'd agree reason is the only means of perceiving reality?
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:39 PM
I'd suspect hierarchies are an inevitable consequence of anarchy, once an individual or group of individuals starts to gain power, and there is not structure in place to stop them
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:39 PM
i mean, maybe, but feelings are a valid part of a person
and they don't determine what is real (generally) but like... they still matter because they matter to the people who have that? (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:40 PM
Facts dont care about your clinical depression
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:40 PM
Feelings can matter without being a useful way to gain insight into reality
Feelings are great in the domains of aesthetics and ethics, but I don't think they have much value in epistemology
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:41 PM
so yeah hot take: curi is just a rand fanboy who got offended that jake would be hostile and critical of objectivism so they had to cherry pick some quotes that could be interpreted as factually inaccurate to make themselves feel validated.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:42 PM
Feelings have more substance than randian political philosophy
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:42 PM
Heyooooooooo
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:42 PM
@LaCroix Boi yeah that
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:42 PM
air horns
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:42 PM
I don't think feelings can determine if the earth is flat or some shit
i hope they didn't outright leave tho
this channel can get circlejerky and that's kinda boring
Anyway, still, they do matter when it comes to certain things
Rose 03-Mar-19 07:43 PM
i wanna OBLITERATE LIBERTARIANS
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:44 PM
like when discussing ethics i think it's fair to take them into account
It's also fair and healthy to express emotion most of the time.
That's kind of a big issue especially with how men are socialized
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 07:44 PM
Trooth
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:44 PM
like we're typically socialized to see expressing emotions as feminine and/or gay or some shit
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:44 PM
Obliterate libertarians with basic understanding of the social contract
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:45 PM
i guess their point would be that being born is a weird basis for a social contract
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:45 PM
obliterate libertarians with basic humanity and kindness
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:45 PM
I'd retort with "grow up you're a social animal not a fuckin hermit"
not the best argument maybe
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:45 PM
Obliterate libertarians with a copy of leviathan and the treaty of westphalia
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:45 PM
but i think it makes sense lol
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:45 PM
i think everytime you discuss societal topics emotions are important. because emotions are an important part of humans, and thats just the thing you have to deal with in societies.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:46 PM
Yeah
I just don't think it's a basis for empirical conclusions or some shit
Like if i claimed god exists i don't think "i feel god's presence therefore he exists" is valid enough to demonstrate it?
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:46 PM
when you try to handle with emotions on a empirical level it just seems like psychology to me.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:47 PM
Oh i mean that feeling is real
i just don't think it's proof that god caused it,
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:47 PM
It can be easy enough to accept the claim they sense "a thing," but then just realize the obvious separation between "a thing" and "god" (edited)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:47 PM
yeah but that thign dosen't have to be an object
could just be they sense a psychological state they were taught to experience
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
Society literally runs on emotion
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
i worded that horribly and nonsensically.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
That is all
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
like it's indicative of a psychological phenomenon, which i think is valid, but it's not indicative that god exits.
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
if you have a bunch of people who are feeling that there is god, you know can draw the conclusion that your society has to find ways to handle these religious freaks.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
correct. That's actually part of psychology focusing on religious experience, to examine the nature of that so-called "transcendent" experiences
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:48 PM
Yeah there's actualyl some atheists who are real into those types of experiences
and even build communities around it that try to often emulate church without the metaphysical claims
I don't see an issue with it personally.. i mean, depending on what parts of it you emulate.
try not to emulate the boy touching parts.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:49 PM
experiencing wonder at the universe fits that "transcendent" experience
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:49 PM
idk, for me it seems like people trying to emulate the feeling of thinking the earth is flat.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:49 PM
Virtualboytouch advanced is the woest emulator @Elyorn
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:50 PM
Eh i don't know, i think it has value to them to feel a part of "something"
as long as it's not self-trickery or anything i don't really see much of an issue with it.
It's kinda like using halluenogenic drugs.
I guess i was right on the money
Anyway self interests and group interests don't always coincide. I'm not a trans person. It dosen't really benefit me to support trans rights
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
Ummm. So sociopathy is a perfect model to run a society on if everyone is rational? Wow rand has it all covered
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
there are no truly rational men
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
How does it benefit you to support jew rights?
I support jewish rights mind you
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
But surely you can benefit from subjugation of others
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
but i don't do it out of sheer self-interest.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
I'm curious why companies market in such a way to take advantage of modes of persuasion that don't rest on reason
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
if I own a company, it doesn't benefits me to give the workers the same rights and benefit I have.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:52 PM
that makes no sense.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:53 PM
laissez faire is the issue, she thinks it's ideal but it's not because corporations act solely for profit without any regard for other things
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:53 PM
Allowing violence against a group of people that a society defines as the other does not have to necessairtly lead to violence against your own group
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:53 PM
If everyone was perfect any system would work perfectly
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:53 PM
Robbery is context-dependent. One can not purchase food one has no money for, yet to willingly stave to death seems counter-productive to the proposed morality of objectivism
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:53 PM
Rands philosopjy relies on everyones interests not negatively impacting others
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:54 PM
Then once you start implementing regulations it is no longer laissez-faire
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:54 PM
Corporations should pay attention to the environment, worker's rights, and society's overall well being
but if they do that, that's often gonna hurt their bottom line, so they don't.
when they do, it's either because they're pressured into doing that, or because they don't lose much by doing that.
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
of course you can live fine in a society that isn't targeting you, but other groups. you even can get rich in that society, because they seize the money from the oppressed group and let them work as slaves, which means more profit for you.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
The law does not determine what is right and wrong
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
Laissez Faire Capitalism. "Laissez Faire" is French for "leave alone" which means that the government leaves the people alone regarding all economic activities.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
Tell that to Chiquita
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
It's not illegal to lay off people en masse because you made a bad decision that tanked your business, as opposed to just cut your own pay
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
Where did you get that definition of laissez-faire?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
but i'd consider it unethical to do that.
Rose 03-Mar-19 07:55 PM
tf you mean you can't have capitalism without peace
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:56 PM
War profiteering is capitalism at its purest
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:56 PM
Yeah but regulating how those corporations can release things to the environment or demand a minimum safety standards is no longer laissez-faire
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 07:57 PM
@Terminus I think that is the core of that kind of world view. they think it is more productive if you starve to death, then stealing food because your slave wage isn't high enough for living. workers are disposable for them, because they reproduce and there are many of them.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:57 PM
And yeah btw i don't even thin k stealing is unethical in all cases.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:57 PM
Alright minimum safety standards? Building codes?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:58 PM
If i was a starvng person and i stole a loaf of bread, am i a bad person for doing that? (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:58 PM
@Elyorn valjean, at least we see each other plain
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:58 PM
dude you're not describing laissez faire at all
Rose 03-Mar-19 07:58 PM
@curi this is ridiculous, people circumvent that all the time, this is like a "you can't do that that's illegal" argument
Terminus 03-Mar-19 07:58 PM
the core of capitalism is not benefiting others, it is making profit. Obtaining power, through capital. Corporations are organizations made around that distilled essence. They will do what it takes to obtain profit, and it shows in their records. In the records of effectively all corporations. This is not any such "crony capitalism." This is capitalism
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:59 PM
the moment you start putting regulations and punishing business for doing shit that hurts people that is not laissez faire
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 07:59 PM
@curi Alright so I whole heartedly disagree with laissez-faire capitalism, now you know why I dislike Ayn Rand
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 07:59 PM
K, then the definition of laissez faire capitalism is the same as capitalism
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 07:59 PM
Did we read different versions of atlas shrugged?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:00 PM
moggy read the "marxist guide to atlas shrugged"
Social security? can you define it so we know what we're talking about (edited)
are you talking welfare?
No i'm italian
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:01 PM
No you have shit definitions for things
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:01 PM
Oh. Yeah we have something like that to... i think
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:01 PM
It's a safety net for people, what is wrong with that?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:02 PM
Oh boy, the old taxation is theft chestnut.
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:02 PM
oh my god
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:02 PM
I think it protects lots of older people from dying?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:02 PM
Well, here's the thing
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
I'm glad I don't give a shit about capitalism
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
What is the problem with social safety nets.
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
capitalism literally came with bandages when it was first implemented
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
Good thing capitalism is outdated
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
Fuck off with it. Help people, don't degrade them to machine-parts
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
^^
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
social safety nets are for law and order
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
Older people need to learn to protect themselves
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
Oh man, you just lost sooo much money
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:03 PM
IF YOU HAVE A TON OF POOR PEOPLE WHO ARE IN DIRE STRAITS THEY WILL LASH OUT AND DO WHAT THEY MUST TO SURVIVE!
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:04 PM
Yeah, cause you're not a hermit
Jesinchen 03-Mar-19 08:04 PM
you are taking money from them now, which they can't spend now on your consumer products, so you can make less money with your company. and when they are old, they get the free money, which they basically stole from your profits earlier, instead of just dying when they aren't able to work anymore.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:04 PM
You can invest your money how you see fit, not the money that is taxed
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:04 PM
You live in a society, we've decided we're not gonna let people do whateveer they want with no consequence, and we decided that it's a good idea to give up a little bit of money for the sake of our own future and the future of other people.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:04 PM
Guess what. You live in a society with other people. Your actions have consequences. A society where they do not DOES NOT FUCKING WORK
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:04 PM
You don't agree with it, it means you're being selfish and i don't think society should cater to your interest.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:05 PM
You live in a society, a collective. You aren't being reasonably constrained by any means. Fuck off with this libertarian "absolute freedom" bullshit. Give a damn about your fellow human, how about
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:05 PM
^^
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:05 PM
people who are mad about taxes are like little children who prefer their allowance to be in change because it looks like more
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:05 PM
@curi they aren't preventing you from making your own plans for retirement
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:05 PM
cry me a river.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:06 PM
A private healthcare system takes away your right to not die from otherwise curable illness
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:06 PM
Meanwhile alot of poor people with a system that has good social safety nets are allowed to... not starve.
they wouldn't be able to do that if those social safety nets didn't exist.
I am making an argument, your response is just "WELL I DON'T LIKE ITTTT"
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:06 PM
i don't CARE if i have to pay a million right now to not die do not take my 2k
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:07 PM
My point is, we don't give a fuck and we shouldn't give a fuck in a society about what some greedy selfish cunts like and don't like.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:07 PM
My comments are more substantive than your entire worldview bruh
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:07 PM
Do you see why we dislike Ayn Rand, we view her stances as not good.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:07 PM
you live in a society
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:07 PM
I don't give a fuck about your essay
Oh.... we are wrong thank you
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:08 PM
There is a fucking reason why serious political thinkers by and large aren't fucking libertarians.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:08 PM
There's nothing to really try against, tho. See, the problem is capitalism isn't equipped to actually fix these issues. It is profit-driven, in its essence. Helping poor people, providing free housing for the homeless or just people in general, giving a damn about the environment, none of that is profitable. So... funnily enough, it doesn't happen. Why do these things sound so familiar?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:09 PM
I'm saying capitalism when left unchecked is a horrible exploitative system that allows rich parasites to get even richer on the backs of arleady poor people.
Oh my god kill me.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:10 PM
Yeah and they are worse off than the kings of now
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:10 PM
hahhahaahhahhahahha, damn that's a line I haven't heard before /s next you'll tell me that because people have TVs they aren't poor
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:10 PM
Why do you think cars and refrigerators would not only need capitalism to exist, but your speicfic laissez faire version of it.
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:10 PM
we all know all human progress halts when people aren't billionaires
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:10 PM
Capitalism didnt give them fridges. scientists and engineers did you actual smoothbrain
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:10 PM
You know who gave you the car? THE FUCKING WORKERS AND PEOPLE WHO DESIGNED AND ENGINEERED IT.
And please get your head out of your persecution complex.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:11 PM
CAPITALISM GAVE THEM THE DEBT WITH WHICH THEY WERE UNABLE TO PURCHASE FOOD, OR A FRIDGE TO STORE IT IN OR A HOME TO PUT THE FRIDGE IN YOU ACTUAL FUCKING MORON
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:11 PM
we're not being unfair to you, your political ideology is just broken and morally bankrupt.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:11 PM
Explain to me how your system is going to work when people aren't always perfectly rational agents
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:11 PM
Too bad the poverty line has been lowered, just to make it look like less people are in poverty now than ever before. Which is a thing, btw. Oh, and, as it would happen, no. Those people are still poor, because funnily enough, while technology might become cheaper over time, and most of said items become cheaper due to being hand-me-downs or some form of retailed price, the stuff that people actually need, housing, food, medical, keeps going up. Imagine that
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:12 PM
ok, we agree those are a good starting point. However most of us have decided that we need more rules than that.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:13 PM
Oh wow, Capitalism gave me a car? Where do I claim said car?
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:13 PM
Why tolerance?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:13 PM
Here i was thinking engineering and chenistry gave me the automobile
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:13 PM
Also the self-interest thing kinda flies in the face of how humans managed to get to the point we are, we acted in the best interest of the tribe not just ourselves
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:13 PM
^^^^^^^^
Sometimes the needs of the many don't coincide with the needs of an individual.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:14 PM
debate isn't truth seeking either, as it would happen. Debate is about looking good
you would refer to a dialectic, more than anything
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:15 PM
In debate the outcome is often highly dependent on how articulate or persuasive the debaters are, not just who is right.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:15 PM
Are you gonna make your own arguments
do you seriously expect us to read a fucking eassy written by you when you could like, EXPRESS THE POINTS here.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:15 PM
Is there any chance you are wrong Curi?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:16 PM
and i've changed my mind alot of fucking times.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:16 PM
What happens when there's a big 'ol fucken flood, and the affected people do not have the resources to help themselves? Are they just shit out of luck?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:16 PM
I've never been a libertarian because i'm not a 100% selfish parasitical piece of shit, but i used to be more right wing than now. (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:16 PM
The interests of an oil company ceo are in direct conflict with the interests of those parts of humankind that want to continue to exist
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
Is the car under all the bills for my grandmother's medication? Is it under the post-final notices for my college degree? Is it somewhere in the house I've lived in my whole life but have to vacate because we can no longer afford to? Fuck off about laissez faire bullshit giving you freedom.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
Except insurance makes money by DENYING people
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
And if they don't have insurance?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
Insurance addresses the problem? Dont make me fucking laugh
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
the profit incentive of insurance is to deny paying as much as possible.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
science didn't invent cars until people had the freedom to sell cars and make a profit. capitalists were able to hire and pay people to design cars, etc, as part of their economic activity. Going back to this, though I'm just kinda astounded. Truly. it's basically saying that "progress wouldn't happen without capitalists to make progress in order to profit off of the hard labor of others to make progress happen." Like... wut. Wut How about "Hey, if we work together, we can make something that'll improve society somewhat." I truly fail to see how this can't be seen so obviously
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
But that's unethical, according to Rand
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:17 PM
Voluntary charity? you mean the thing people aren't supposed to do cause it's not in their self-interest
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:18 PM
... ?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:18 PM
Or we as a society do what we can to support each other because one day we might need that assistance
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:18 PM
Voluntary charity isnt enough. You know why? Becauuse voluntary charity has only a fraction of the resources available to sydtems that actually fucking work
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:18 PM
Oh, nvm, googled
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:18 PM
Ok, what's so bad instead of relying on private charity, which will mean not enough people donate cause people are generally sewlfish cunts, we decide "hmm, why do we not require everybody to give a way a percent of the money they made so everyone benefits"
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:18 PM
Ahem. TRICKLE DOWN DOES NOT WORK. It's never worked. It's not working. It will never work. I'm just gonna keep this copy-pasted for future use.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:19 PM
you're talking about it as if it's the govbernment breaking your door down demanding ALL of your money.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:19 PM
Trickle down doesnt work because corporations do everything in their power to not pay money
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:20 PM
Dude you don't have a single fucking fact to back up your position
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:20 PM
I mean you keep making claims without evidence. Why cant i
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:20 PM
you have your own eassay, that is not a fucking fact.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:20 PM
Are you saying trickle down works or that corporations don't try to make sure their profits are maximized
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:20 PM
Oh look an essay. How about you give us peer reviewed sources instead
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:20 PM
There's never been a fully libertarian society, and the closest we've gotten to that has disastreous results
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:21 PM
Basically the affected people with insurance might be okay, depending on how effectively the insurance companies weasel out of the issue, and if they don't have insurance, then they'll have to rely on charity, even though someone acting solely in their own self interest won't donate.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:21 PM
AN ESSAY IS NOT EVIDENCE you're literally backing up your own claim with your own opinion
EARLY AMERICA WORKED OUT PRETTY GOOD FUCKING KILL ME NOW DADDY.
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:21 PM
Wow, there's a hot take.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:21 PM
Nah i'd like you to stop beign a selfish cunt
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:21 PM
But also... slaves? That's not voluntary trade.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:21 PM
you miserable sack of shit
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:22 PM
Early american capitalism, you mean cotton picking fuelled by the atlantic slave trade? GET THE FUCK OUT NOW.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:22 PM
Oh no, i hurt his feelings.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:22 PM
It does, I think
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:22 PM
god what will i do now that i can't reply to the mighty intellectual powerhouse that is curi
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:22 PM
Early america word out pretty well for a very specific set of people, whom largely wrote the account of that time, and at the expense of a whole lot of people whom we don't hear from.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
libertarian capitalists are about as silly as flat earthers.
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
i'm expecting you to not tbh
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
No, but early America would be a pretty bad example of liberalism, considering, you know...
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
"Early america turned out great" shall we go to pre-revolutionary salem or post revolutionary all of north america
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
All the slavery
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
why are we engaging with this guy anyway?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
That's actually a pretty shit example
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:23 PM
I don't know, but I hope you can find one.
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:24 PM
Slaves would be only part of it, I mean the genocide and conquest of resrouces from the natives is also a pretty big caveat too. (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:24 PM
Land owning males were the only ones who had a vote
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:24 PM
You want liberalism? John stuart mill comes to mind
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:25 PM
"Slavery isn't very productive" Maybe once automation started speeding up, but I think you might want a citation for that
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:25 PM
Yeahbwell rand isnt in the same tradition as a working society
I mean hes using your logic to justify slavery. You should be thhe one thats worried here
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
Explain how my view that slavery got work done is pro slavery, and not an objective description of how the Southern American economy functioned
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
a slave is a worker that can be overworked and dosen't require any pay, how is that not beneficial to the slave owner.
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
WHAT THE FUCK
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
did he move the goalpost or am i high
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
It did, and much more profitably for the slave-owners
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
It did because you didnt have to pay them or treat them with basic human dignity
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:27 PM
much more profitably taking inflation into account ofc
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
HAVE YOU NEBER HEARD OF PLANTATIONS MY GOOD MAN
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
i thought they made plantations up for song of the south
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
Only an objectivist would hear "I think this produced a lot of capital" and think that that means I am defending the thing.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
OOF
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
an entire fucking industry was run on slaves and it was so profitable that A CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER ITS ABOLITION
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
No, no it wasn't expensive to keep slaves. Because they're slaves. You didn't have to keep them in good conditions, just good enough conditions to survive. I don't see why you are lying here
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
Oh and the civil war was absoltuely fought over slavery. The people on the confederate side said as much
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
Trickle down doesnt work because corporations do everything in their power to not pay money
Walmart (shit pay), Royal Dutch Shell (crimes against humanity), Toyota (worst examples of karōshi), Volkswagen (cheated emissions tests), BP (countless actions against the environment). I didn't choose these companies randomly.
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:28 PM
this must be a troll?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:29 PM
yeah i know he's got more blocked, but you can see why i'm not engaging him rationally
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:29 PM
No, you are just ignoring aspects of capitalism you don't like
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:29 PM
We're against profit-above-all, you simpleton.
Terminus 03-Mar-19 08:29 PM
which is intellectually dishonest
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:29 PM
The disagreement is fundamentally morea bout how libertarians are just pieces of shit, or atleast their moral/political system is
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:30 PM
Well we only have one American history to look back on. Maybe if you can make a machine that can travel through the multiverse you can show me a free market America that did better than the one we have in reality.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:30 PM
The bit where its only goal is capital
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:30 PM
I do not
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:31 PM
Can we stick to this reality for now
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:31 PM
holy fuck is he gonna transition into multiverse theory
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:31 PM
Wages aren't determined according to supply and demand. And no, I don't think it should. People should have fair wages and the ability to negotiate fairer wages in a system where they can't.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:32 PM
oh god the horror.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:33 PM
The thing about approxinations of history and alternative outcomes is tha, get this, history is a collection of unexpectedly stupid decisions made by supposedly intelligent people
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:34 PM
Price controls? The fuck? Regardless of what you want to call it, I'm all for people who don't want to live in a hell-hole to not live in a hell-hole.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:35 PM
slaves can literally be worked so hard they fuckin die
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:35 PM
Slaves are forced to work as hard as free men because they get beaten if they dont. Thats kinda the point of the whips
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:35 PM
Free men only work as hard as they have too
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:35 PM
^^^
in most cases anyway. And typically if people put in overtime they get something out of it
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:35 PM
You ever been whipped? I imagine not being whipped is a hell of an incentive
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:36 PM
unless it's just some kind of passion project
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:36 PM
I have studied economics, yes. We can observe social policies working throughout the world working quite quite well.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:36 PM
Keeps it the same at a cheaper price
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:36 PM
But is the cost of resources to prevent slaves from escaping greater than the cost of hiring payed workers? And, as Brooker pointed out, free men only work as hard as they have to, are you sure that that is working harder than how hard slaves are compelled to work?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:36 PM
i don't give a shit if it raises total production, it's unethical because you don't enslave people
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:36 PM
I dont imagine. I know because the atlantic slave trade powered an economy
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:37 PM
Cause people have some basic right to freedom
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:37 PM
But heres the thing. Slavery, right, slavery is bad.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:37 PM
It's the government setting the maximum price of a good or service, as I understand it. (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:37 PM
Mind blown
The difference there is that an army requires skill, picking cotton requires fingers.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:38 PM
That isn't a very apt comparison
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:38 PM
Um, the DRAFT was quite effective at fighting.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:38 PM
Curi you suck at this. Quit while youre behind
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:38 PM
One is placing you in a situation where you are very apt to be killed and the other is being forced to work
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:38 PM
Oh no
welcome to the club moggy
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
Oh noooo guess ill have to go get laaaaaiiiiid
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
Also an all voluntary force doesn't always attract the best individuals
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
Don't worry guys, I'll join y'all in a bit.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
Btw i've been skimming through his essay. It smells of fucking simplified shit
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
do me do me, hey, I'm not white and I'm of age
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
Up top
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:39 PM
Like presenting the basics which by and large arent' terrible but ignoring the actual nuances
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:40 PM
Wagess should be determined by the cost of living
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:40 PM
Unions should be able to negotiate wages so they can represent the interest of the workers.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:40 PM
And thats minimum wage. The minimum wage should be determined by the cost of living
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
you tagged the wrong person lmao
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
what
why would you tag an admin of all people
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
Nah i think they're implyng that only privileged white cunts by and large are libertarians.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
Oh dear you pinged the wrong person. Prepare to get slaughtered
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
chapo you got tagged by a libertarian
Unleash the caothic good rage.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
Elyorn advocates unions and Moggy wants a min wage tied to cost of living, and it makes me sad that their ideas are not on offer at the market place of ideas
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:41 PM
I'm assuming you are opposed to vaccination requirements?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
Anyway. Minimum wage should be set by the cost of living because if i get a job i want it to support my right to not doe penniless in the gutter
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
BUT NOT HAVING DECENT HEALTHCARE????????
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
so can not paying people enough
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
Wages should have a minimum of living costs and be further increased to afford luxuries in order to incentivise more neccesary services.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
this whole thing is a big OOF from me dawg
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
@LaCroix Boi dude it's fine i'd have blocked me. I get it. I just don't think he's worth engaging rationally.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
That seems counter productive to your idea that you should have freedom ofbody
Elions 03-Mar-19 08:42 PM
Tie it to inflation
A consumption economy requires people to have enough money to spend on goods outside of what they need to live
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:43 PM
Yes, like minimum wage, yes.
Elions 03-Mar-19 08:43 PM
So it makes sense even if you're a hardcore capitalist
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:43 PM
What about the right of a corporation to charge 100000 dollars for life saving medication (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:43 PM
So you are OK with laws enforcing hand washing
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:43 PM
I presonally favor UBI that is sufficient for a comfortable standard of living (not merely survival) over a minimum wage as it shouldn't be contingent on one's employment, but a minimum wage that is sufficent to live on is a passable half-measure.
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 08:43 PM
@ me if this idiot gets out of hand
actually just @ all staff
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
Yeah that's actually an interesting one. You could argue you shouldn't be required to get vaccinated because it's your body your choice, but your body your choice in that case also harms others. So this is an example of self-interest not necessairly coinciding with what's ethical
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
^ i d i o t ^
swing and a miss, buddy...
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
Washing your hands in the context of food preparation?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
Yeah not washing your hand is actually kind of a huge threat to others. On a grand scale.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
Well I think you are wrong as shit because that's a great way to spread diseases
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
my good points are getting trampled this is not fair
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
Like the fact we started washing our hands often is one of hte biggest contributors to lowered disease rates.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
not to mention that not washing your hands is gross af
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:44 PM
So how is vaccines to prevent disease spread different from washing your hands to prevent disease spread?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:45 PM
like our hands are one of the main ways we spread diseases.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:45 PM
Not washing your hands is a signifcant threat. You never heard of fucking typhoid?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:45 PM
like i said moggy, not a rational actor worth engaging in good faith
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 08:45 PM
gotta get those poop particles off your hands after you take a shit
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:45 PM
Do you only stay at home?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:45 PM
ecoli is a big deal.
Tetanus is a big deal.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:46 PM
Price controls are a regulation on the maximum price of a good/service. Walmart, for example, can afford to have its current prices and increase wages; they just don't want to. Also, I care more about people not dying on the fucking streets to big corporations getting a bigger cut to hoard for themselves.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:46 PM
If you get your ecoli into someones cuts you give them tetanus and then they die
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:46 PM
So it's OK to spread the flu and the cold and not OK to spread other diseases?
It's OK to spread gastrointestinal issues but not OK to spread chicken pox
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:47 PM
There are existing examples of countries where you dont have to pay hundreds of thousands for life saving medication doing fine
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:47 PM
Not familiar with it enough according to you. Enlighten me.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:48 PM
this would be a good time to provide a citation that isn't literally your own essay (edited)
like who the fuck cites their own opinion to back up their own claim
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:48 PM
For example. I didnt have to pay top dollar for my ritalin. Which is life savving because its preventing me from catching a plane and beating your face into your thick skull
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 08:48 PM
washing your hands doesn't take that much time so it's more than worth it even if the positive result is small
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:48 PM
It's actually one of the most effective ways to prevent the spread of diseases after vaccinations
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:48 PM
Dude the fact you chaned the mind of some random idiot dosen't make you right
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
Drop a link to the price controls economist things. I'll open it up in another tab
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
debate isn't about who is right
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
hand washing is literally one of the major hygiene advancements
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
Debate is about who can market their shit better.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
Keep it under 10 pages/5000 words as best as you can, but sure, go ahead.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
I won't read it until this is over, though, because I can't participate in this discussion and read an essay at the same time
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
the cost of a good should be tied to the actual cost to produce it -- many medications cost pennies per dose, there is no justification for multiple orders of magnitude markups
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
Just an article
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:49 PM
@BrookerTJustice the bubonic plague is like the round earth. A lie.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:50 PM
i don't think he'd be willing to read an entire book to deal with the political equivalent of a flat earther.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:50 PM
@HoneyDrops the extra price comes from recouping research and development
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:50 PM
even if a medication is costly to produce, the cost should be born collectively as one shouldn't face desititution over factors one has no control over.
Fuck that, R&D should be public funded
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:50 PM
It kinda is to a degree
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:50 PM
In which case, there is nothing to recoup
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
I still wanna know how vaccines endanger other people but not lack of accessible healthcare
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
Alright, thank you. I'll read it, especially since you're taking the time to verify it's saying what you're arguing. (edited)
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
do you, per chance mean endanger you?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
lack of accessible healthcare endangers people who can't afford healthcare.
or don't have acess to it.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
So vaccines should be accessible but corporations should also make a profit off of tobacco?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/features/handwashing/index.html How hand washing is effective as fuck
Wash Your Hands
Learn when and how you should wash your hands to stay healthy.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:51 PM
usually poor people.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:52 PM
Herd immunity requires vaccinations to work
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:52 PM
as we all know vaccines are infinite
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:52 PM
FOR FUCKS SAKE DUDE. HEALTHCARE IS ACCESSIBLE IN EVERY DEVELOPED COUNTRY BUT YOURS
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:52 PM
The fair system is to let those with money get it and those without to not
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:52 PM
healthcare dosen't have to be a scarce resource if we decide to put enough time and resources into making it available to all
It's only a scarce resource if you make it such. which makes you, again, a piece of shit.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:53 PM
We have existing examples of free healthcare. It's limited only by people and time.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:53 PM
Like there's so many ways about how being poor fucks you under capitalism
and libertarians are just "Yeah, that's great, more of that please, but more extreme"
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:53 PM
You said it wasn't effective and I'm showing it is
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:53 PM
It also should be prioritized (should things be limited) by one metric: immediate need/urgency. (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:53 PM
Capitalism requires you to have already been successful to thrive
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:53 PM
Therefore your initial reason for being against the law was flawed
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 08:54 PM
ofc you do
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:54 PM
jfc
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 08:54 PM
"People can't have all they want" Boi. Health care isn't something people want it's something they need. No one decides that they want to go get a physical because it's a fun night out. Chemotherapy and radiation aren't hobbies.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:54 PM
There are laws about people washing their hands. Every restaurant in the US has to follow handwashing standards.
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:54 PM
Economic success, or that one one's progenitors is utterly irrelevant to one's deservingness of helathcare.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:55 PM
Yeah i feel like your argument is just fucked irredemably if you're considering healthcare the same way as you consider a sofa (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:55 PM
People cant have everything they want like the medication that keeps their immune system from falling apart as aids annihilates the last vestiges of their life
@curi explain scandinavia.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:55 PM
I am personally glad you withdrew that after having information presented to you. It was mature of you to do so. Thank you.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:55 PM
You cunt.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:55 PM
can someone point out to this dumbass that every other fierst world country has a single payer system
and they prioritize on need
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:56 PM
Shhhh elyorn america is the only country
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:56 PM
I would very much like that there were more doctors
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:56 PM
You know what would give us more doctors? Affordable university education.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:57 PM
SOCIALISM
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:57 PM
explain to me how vaccines are easy therefore okay but insulin, which we can also make, is not
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:57 PM
@Zaphod1207 can we just seize the means of production for the workers just to piss this guy off.
... is this how it feels like to want to trigger the lib(ertarians)
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:57 PM
becoming a commie to own the libertarians
do you realize that most healthcare is not surgery???
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
A single farmer can feed more people than one doctor can see
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
^ rose (edited)
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
Scandinavia (and a lot of Europe and most developed areas) have single-payer healthcare. They prioritize people based on urgency of care. This is also how the US military functions.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
Curi. Please actually go to a university and learn... literally anything
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
take a 1 year course into not being a selfish dick
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
Justt go and learn your first thing
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
maybe read das kapital, i dunno. (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:58 PM
Its not efficient. Are you a fucking borg
Rose 03-Mar-19 08:59 PM
by what fucking standards
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:59 PM
also farming is heavilly automated, and could be more automated.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:59 PM
^
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 08:59 PM
Cant wait for curis stances on the ahe of consent.
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 08:59 PM
we'll leave aside a lot of healthcare could be too.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 08:59 PM
It's not that we need more farmers, we could use more, but we just need more land
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:00 PM
we already produce tons of food, never mind the large amount of feed corn we grow in the US that we literally burn as fuel.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:00 PM
@Zaphod1207 oh god no
is it gonna be milo all over again
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:00 PM
Also under a libertarian system the aets would shrivel and die so fuck off curi
Arts*
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:01 PM
when I made my joke he protested to the racism part but not the of age part
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:01 PM
OwO
Lol hes gonna be pissed case he can only see half the conversation
My next trick: spoon bending
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:02 PM
In any case, even if something is scarce: one's economic success is not a good metric as a determining factor.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:02 PM
"Raising the minimum wage is a formula for causing unemployment among the least-skilled members of society. The higher wages are, the higher costs of production are. The higher costs of production are, the higher prices are. The higher prices are, the smaller are the quantities of goods and services demanded and the number of workers employed in producing them. These are all propositions of elementary economics that you and the President should well know."
are we ignorign the fact that if you give them higher wages, they also SPEND MORE MONEY
like holy shit isn't that basic economics
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:03 PM
They assume everyone hoards wealth like a fucking dragon
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:03 PM
if you make it so workers make enough money to not have to save all of it cause they live in such a fucking shitty system they can't afford to buy anything nice
they spend more of it into consumer goods and services
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:03 PM
Isnt that hilarious, theyre so out of touch they dont understand that money is something you use to buy things
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:04 PM
that stimulates the economy, it dosen't hurt it
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:04 PM
You're assuming that the only options are a market or a central planner, that's a false dichotomy.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:04 PM
fun fact
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:04 PM
No they take the health issues and they rank them by how urgent the care for it is
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:04 PM
you mean like what's happening right now?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
american healthcare would save more money if they transitioned into single-payer
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
you think people get good healthcare if they're not millionaires u tripping
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
IT'D COST LESS. and this is according to a libertarian study
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
I'm pretty sure individuals can only effectively plan the healthcare that they can afford
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
Single payer doesn't automatically mean there is a single central planner, it simply means the costs are born collectively.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
@LaCroix Boi you dont plan to buy mansions with money you don't have? Wow.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:05 PM
just plan around ur crippling conditions lol
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:06 PM
"the payer" doesn't need to be the arbiter of healthcare decisions
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:06 PM
^ god fucking thank you
what.... did he just advocate redistribution of wealth as an alternative to single-payer (edited)
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:06 PM
Healthcare should be a human right
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:06 PM
am i fucking high
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:06 PM
You know why taxation has lasted fpr centuries? Because its a system that works better than your stupid fucking randian dipshittery
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:06 PM
i called it an hour ago
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
and the rose block coming in 3 2 1 (edited)
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
HA
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
I FUCKING KNEW IT
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
i mean why should I care is that a threat
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
THE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
I feel left out
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
Hey curi watch out who you block
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
god i am having the time of my life.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
oh no I won't be able to dm a libertarian :c
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
Dont say it like its a pnishment curi
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:07 PM
I wanna be blocked. This is unfair.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:08 PM
FACTS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:08 PM
Facts only care about his feelings
Dont tread on him or his ego
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:08 PM
holy shit the level of butthurt
and then these motherfuckers claim lefties are the special snowflakes...
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:08 PM
@curi hey little child, I just deleted your message in #ask-hugo-and-jake
1
1
Did I just tread on you?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:09 PM
tread on me instead daddy
healthcare is a requirement. EAting food is a requirement too, but the kind of food you eat can be more of a consumer good.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
the whole fucking point is that you shouldn't have to choose between food and your health
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
like you need to have healthcare
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
They should provide a minimum of food I believe
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
and you need to eat, but you don't need to eat caviar.
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
The govt doesn't need to be making those choices. Doctors should, the govt just picks up the tab.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
like holy shit with singlepayer
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:10 PM
some countries actually do have that, my grandparents got some basics delivered, and still bought more food, imagine that
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
potentially all you're doing is cutitng out the parasitic middle man of the insurance companies.
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
@curi do you have me blocked?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
depending on how you set it up
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
you won't be put on a diet by the state holy shit
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
I would say deleting his question was petty and wrong
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
It broke the rules
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
Also all people generally have similar dietary requirements, but individuals could have vastly different health care needs. If we just gave everyone cash money for the most expensive treatments, then that would be way too much money for young, healthy people
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:11 PM
Go read the rules again, kiddo.
@curi
"@curi hey little child, I just deleted your message in #ask-hugo-and-jake" -me, four minutes ago
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:12 PM
it's not that hard to determine what healthcare to prioritize
Is someone gonna die if they don't get that operation (for example) (edited)
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:12 PM
If we gave everyone cash money according to median health care requirements, there will still be people that can't afford healthcare
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:12 PM
The way you went about informing them was petty and childish
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:13 PM
i mean it's appropriate for an actual child.
why do we have to pretend these guys have a valid opinion that should be respected.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:13 PM
I'm still in shock over the fact that you're here arguing that you'd prefer to be handed money for treatment instead of just treated solely for aesthetics of freedom
4
1
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:13 PM
i mean by all means engage them in good faith if you want
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:13 PM
OOF
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:13 PM
The way je goes about understanding economics is petty amd childish too
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
did he get banned I wasn't paying attention
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
also how the fuck do you get that money
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
(spoiler: taxes)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
i know
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
lmao
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
@curi I tried to private message you, do you have me blocked?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
Re: Healthcare efficiency Urgency based cares helps those most in danger of death and worst symptoms first. Doctors decide this, not the government, not democracy, doctors.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:14 PM
he's literally advocating for redistribution of wealth through taxation as opposed to funding the system with tax money itself
yeah and also doctors kinda preefer singlepayer systems
and the system the US has right now is so fucking wasteful and broken that the government would save money if they went singlepayer.
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:15 PM
You know the people both trained in the domain knowledge to best make those sorts of decisions and with a code of ethics that binds them to act in the interestes of their patients. (edited)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:15 PM
and again, that is according to a study funded by a right wing think tank
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:15 PM
That was the CATO institute, wasn't it?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:15 PM
i don't remember, i can dig it up if you want
also, hot take
people don't actually know necessairly what is best for their health all the time.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:17 PM
Black death comes to mind
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:17 PM
I'm not sure the government would save money from single payer, but the American people will
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:17 PM
exhibit A: anti-vaxxers, exhibit B: global obesity crisis
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:17 PM
Dude i'm sure there's atleast 1 weirdo out there that decided that nose job was more important than paying for that breast lump to be checked out or something (edited)
don't mess with slaughter.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
how can you block people if you want maximum freedom
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
He will... slaughter you...
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
also it's literally in #rules
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
I should be able to come to ur lawn for freedom
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
isn't it?
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
@curi you're on thin ice - I have grounds to ban you right now
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
no step on snek?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
don't step on him
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
I'll step on snek alright.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
Dont ban him slaughter hes the only thing keeping me occupied
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
tread'nt
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:18 PM
I'll steppy step
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:19 PM
@Vantablack i prefer "im too stupid to understand taxation"
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:19 PM
lol
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:19 PM
Taxation't
1
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:19 PM
"I'm too stupid to understand taxation and social contracts, and too much of a dick to understand why self-interest is not always ethical" (edited)
in all seriousness i hope they don't do anything to get them banned cause it gets kinda boring and circlejerky around here
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:21 PM
idk man this is pretty circlejerky still it's like a 6 v 1 slaughter
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
They broke a minor rule, then an instant ban rule
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
It might be a circlejerk but damn if it isn't entertaining
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
heck ye
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
There is no reason for me to not ban them (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
I'm too dumb to argue but I do love to watch (edited)
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
It's only out of the kindness of my heart
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:22 PM
(X) doubt
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
I'm also too dumb to argue but I try my best
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
i know, i 'm just saying
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
Blocking people for WRONGTHINK isn't in good faith
No
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
I had a sufgestion but you blocked me
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
to play devil's advocate, i mostly was just being insulting and mad.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
I'm more interested in the healthcare thing
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
Actually, yes, Slaughter. Re: Minimum wage 1) I mostly want UBI tbh 2) As minimum wage currently exists, it's not nearly enough to let people live easily, they thus have to get second jobs. 3) Big corporations can afford to pay workers more without reasoning prices. (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
all right there Steve (edited)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
cause i don't have alot of patience for libertarians.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:23 PM
@Elyorn iwas giving suggestions. I just season them with cunt words
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:24 PM
Personally I prefer collective bargaining via union to minimum wage
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:24 PM
It wasn't very mature of me but like... eh this isn't exactly some highfalutin debate.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:24 PM
WORSE OFF THAN NO WAGE YOU WANKAH?
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:24 PM
Make the reasoning yourself. @curi this isn't homework.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:24 PM
wait you need an article to tell you why min wage makes people worse off?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:25 PM
ahem sorry. I meant to say you are wrong because we need money to live
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:25 PM
Read it and summarise
did you block them too?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:25 PM
I dislike mit so i wont accept any of their studies
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:25 PM
I dislike Newton so his laws of motion do not apply to me
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:25 PM
@Slaughter round so it probably makes sense he blocked me but it dosen't make much sense for rose and shit
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
i don't think i'm blocked lol
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
i think he's just a lil fragile ego boi
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
You are lol
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
oh ok, so you were only threatened with a block
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
If I had to guess
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
People aren't typically wanting to work for less than a living-wage though.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
(you can still see blocked messages ely)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
I know?
i don't have anyone blocked right now.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:26 PM
he meant threatened me, also hi
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:27 PM
@curi get some thicker skin and remember the rules
...
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:27 PM
@Slaughter round is it against the rule to resort to insults against libertarians? genuily asking (edited)
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:27 PM
#rules
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:27 PM
the one in the fucking rules channel you absolute donkey
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:27 PM
No ely
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:27 PM
Well rules sounds alot like regulation which is socialist evil thing
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:28 PM
You ignored 2 rules in as many minutes
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:28 PM
Curi you fucking melon #rules
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:28 PM
Make sure you know them
You should be perm banned so you're on thin ice.
@curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:28 PM
jesus christ
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
None of us can ever say slaughter is unfair again
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
Blocking me you fucking tool
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
you asked a question that was against the rules in ask hugo and jake, whic his a minor offense, and you blocked a mod, which is a major offense.
1
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
Curi, you're a libertarian, if you can remember the age of consent in all 50 states, you can remember where the rules are
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
OOF
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
it's in #rules it's pretty short, read it.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
Tbh, the only rule I know he broke was blocking a mod.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
ROASTED
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
:dab:
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
Links in messages for #ask-hugo-and-jake
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
What was the question and how did it break the rules also joey wins everything
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
According to #rules it's an insta ban to block an admin. Other than that, you can't put links in #ask-hugo-and-jake and walls of text are also not allowed (although that's a bit subjective)
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
^
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:29 PM
lacroix boi spittin some truth
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
They can't respond to that in a video
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
lool
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
And no links
No exceptions
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
i mean couldn't he have just said "dear hugo and jake, i noticed that in this video about jordan peterson you seemed to have made a mistake" or something?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
If you have to paste-bin it, it's too long.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
i mean maybe that's not a valid question
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
@curi please do.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
Jake does his... Weekly? Are they weekly debates? If you want something more long form that would be the place to do that
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:30 PM
you can do that without a link
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
Every Tuesday I think
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
OH GOD I'D CUM IN MY PANTS IF HE DID THAT
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
I'd love to see Jake absolutely DUNK on you Curi
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
sorry caps
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
Youd get bodied
Slaughter round 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
Same calig and Ely
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
Yeah jake does weekly debates and shit, you can totally debate him about libertarianism or whatever else.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
That will make my Tuesday
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
we already had a libertarian or 2 get dunked on on twitch
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
Oh shit jake does his debates while im at uni
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:31 PM
?? i dunno what you said slaughter
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:32 PM
there wouldn't be anything left at the end just an irradiated crater where Curi once was
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:32 PM
More radioactive than the radium you discovered curi
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:32 PM
i mean this guy likes debate so much, he should love debating jake.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:32 PM
Not dying should be a right.
From avoidable means, I mean.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
About the healthcare thing... Well, people here generally want universal healthcare, you were opposed to that because 1. it's a limited resource, and 2. you don't want the government making healthcare decisions for individuals
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
oh wow that is so incisincere an argument i want to punch the monitor
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
"Everyone dies" that take is hotter than a gold atom in a hadron collider
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
holy shit dude the money you're putting in healthcare with taxation also benefits you
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
You sound like that Sparky guy that Jake also debated
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
cause you're probably gonna need healthcare at some point.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:33 PM
and crushed into a pulp
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:34 PM
You're just doing that in a system that allows people to get healthcare even if they're not rich dudes
which, let's face it, in america being rich also means you're probably white. and a guy
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:34 PM
Or at least married to one @Elyorn
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:34 PM
so there's definitely a racial element there, too.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:34 PM
Or if you divorce a rich guy you're set
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
THANKS BEZOS
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
lacroixboi knows from experience.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
#goals
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
Oh yeah. Lets talk about bezos.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
marry hillary clinton and then divorce her and sue her
kill bill clinton first ofc.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
STOP SAYING FINITE SOURCES IT DOESN'T MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT DOES
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
@curi so only the rich are entitled to a remotely comfortable life?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
Jesus christ there's no magical book determining what is a resource that is finite or not
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:35 PM
nice word salad pal
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
Damn, I almost just broke a rule Healthcare doesn't extend lives by days. It cures ailments and injuries (fatal or otherwise)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
like what the fuck healthcare is only finite if you make it finite.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
you might want to toss it a bit more next time
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
The only solution to this problem of resources I can think of requires six colorful stones and a gauntlet
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
oh my god
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
@LaCroix Boi universal healthcare. Healing the universe by excising the tumour
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
dude
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
There are cases of that, but not typically...
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:36 PM
why the fuck do they pretend universal healthcare isn't a thing that's been done (edited)
it's not fucking theoretical
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:37 PM
uhhhh akshually scandinavia only works cus they're like 2 people and white checkmate libtard
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:37 PM
CURI. YOU WANKER. NORWAY SWEDEN AUSTRALIA THE UK GERMANY DENMARK FINLAND NEW ZEALAND
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:37 PM
What about Canada? They do the thing there, right?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:37 PM
Ahem, people who are fucking DYING have a higher DEMAND for healthcare than those who aren't. They should have a higher supply. Does that vocabulary help more?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:37 PM
Dude how much you wanna bet this libertarian cunt would lose his shit over, say, deplatforming of right wingers? Or trans people and bahtrooms
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:38 PM
Oh yeah. Canada. I forgot about them. Its like the national anthem says. "OH! canada!"
@curi in america sometimes you dont even get to wait because you didnt have the money to pay
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:38 PM
Cosmetic surgery isn't prioritized. It's typically private either way.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:38 PM
people pay AND wait tho, like that's literally a thing???
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:38 PM
Read my lips. Poor people need medicine too.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:39 PM
that is a fucking lie
denmark, sweden, canada, etc prioritize based on NEEED
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:39 PM
so is waiting a long time better than not getting anything at all because you can't afford it?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:39 PM
Prioritize based on urgency.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:39 PM
assuming the funding is not fucking killed by the right wing assholes of said countries, you only have to wait for elective procedures.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:39 PM
this isn't even correct because people exaggerate the waiting but america has wait times too
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:39 PM
oh yeah, ALL COUNTRIES RATION HEALTHCARE
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
When it comes to healthcare, though, the options are generally 1. get treatment or 2. die, so it's not very much of a choice
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
I can vouch for the US waiting times being quite long.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
America has wait times. You have to wait for like a year to afford your meds
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
the difference is the US rations by the size of your wallet, and other countries by urgency and need.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
I wouldn't know because I haven't been to doctor in 4-5 years and before that I was getting universal healthcare via the military
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
your stupid fucking system would be even worse than the shitshow you have now
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
The homeless guy with the hole in his head should have higher priority to health than the billionaire who needs a little dot-bandage.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:40 PM
THE HORROR
now let me spend 30 minutes trying to philosophize my way out of obvious fucking facts
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:41 PM
Yeah but the billionaire gives the politicians discrete payments
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:41 PM
HOLY SHIT YOU PEDANTIC SLUT
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:41 PM
curl are you even rich?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:41 PM
facepalm
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:41 PM
Curi. Are you aware that some people dont have any options because healthcare costs money
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:41 PM
rose hold me i'm gonna kill myself.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
I'm going to facepalm all the fucking way through my skull
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
You know bandaids are not a controlled substance in the UK...
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
dude can we get this guy to debate jake.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
PLEASE
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
Im gonna facepalm curi's eyes into their balls
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
I don't think any proponent of universal healthcare would want to make band-aids prescription only
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
I would pay MONEY to see that
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
NO
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
Alright, fuck it, sprained ankle. The billionaire has a sprained ankle. The homeless guy still has a hole in his head. Who should be treated first? (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
Curi. No one has ever been more wrong than you (edited)
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:42 PM
ALRIGHT
TIME OUT
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:43 PM
because the profit incentive of private healthcare is to DENY HEALTHCARE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE YOU SLUT HOW DO YOU NOT SEE IT.
Sorry, i shouldn't insult sluts (edited)
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:43 PM
@curi why, exactly, do you think that universal healthcare would make demands skyrocket?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:43 PM
LOOOL doctors in singlepayer countries are dictators guys!
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:43 PM
is this an admission that people are currently fucking dying for no reason?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:43 PM
@curi STOP AVOIDING THE QUESTION YOU GARVAGE PERSON
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
wat
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
hol up I am confusion
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
But......... The profit motive would decide that rich people should be treated first. And the homeless could... Die? I guess?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
One of two things is happening
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
this is an argument... for healthcare?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
Either im having a stroke or curi is
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
Under your system, the billionaire gets treated first and the man would die.
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
i think we broke him
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
Maybe we could have like, two tiers of health care, right? Like a fast lane for the super rich, and then a slow lane for people that can afford it, and then death for those that can't afford the slow lane
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:44 PM
I am trying to figure out how the demand for healthcare is at all reliant on supply, and not actual need for the care. (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:45 PM
TalkingPointsBot loading please wait...
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:45 PM
He keeps using economic laws to describe healthcare
Like supply and demand. Economics isnt the grand unifying theory you cant use it to understand everything
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
TRICKLE DOWN
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
How much is a life worth to you, curi?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
PEOPLE GET RICH MAINLY BY EXPLOITING PEOPLE
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
Getting people healthcare before it becomes an emergency usually saves money and keeps those people as productive members of society (edited)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
k i'm ready give me a fuckin molotov let's seize the memes
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
I can't even
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:46 PM
No says the man in washington it belongs to congress, no says the man in moscow it belongs to the people, no says curi it belongs to me
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
No, it's not a binary profit > expense thing. They just don't want some profit. They want maximum profit
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
one doctor can see multiple patients you dumb shit
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
LOLWAT
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
are you Andrew Ryan in disguise
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
@Vantablack is a man not entitled to his own sweaty doctor brow?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
doctors don't have magic life extending powers they just treat shit that isn't working properly.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
I would also like for people to not have to go into bankruptcy to pay medical bills to stay alive
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
throwing more money than necesary at doctors dosen't reveal their true power or some shit
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
You don't need a personal doctor for that
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
@Zaphod1207 The man in Washington says it belongs to the poor (edited)
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 09:47 PM
Ah, even the 1% have to worry about the 1%
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
most people "want" excatly the amount of healthcare they need, not more. Even if I wasn't paying for it, I don't need nor want a personal doctor.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
can someone ask how much money curi has
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
The man in the vatican says it belongs to god
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
You can also have a private doctor if we had public healthcare.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
money on atleast middle upper class.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
https://i.redd.it/gfqbkusriyf11.png
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:48 PM
...that... is not how it works (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
What?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
@curi do you understand how universal healthcare works everywhere and americans just refuse to accept that fact
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
isn't this guy some kind of true economist expertt.
i don't think that's how supply and demand works
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
Do you think people buy food just to buy it?
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
I am offended @Zaphod1207
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
... I can easily afford to spend 5 times what I do on food. I don't because I know how much I need to eat and I want to eat that amount not... more?
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
a true libertarian
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
Wouldn't lowering the price of food increase the SUPPLY and not the demand?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
Umm, you understand that a lot of food is wasted, correct?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
Curi lost this argument hours ago
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:49 PM
would actually want more rice. And I prefer to cook my own food.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
You don't need to see the same doctor five days a week every week. You can go in for a check up every couple of months and see the same benefit as having a personal doctor. I don't imagine the marginal benefit of doctor appointments is very high.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
Yes but reducing the cost of food isn't going to drive people to go to vegas and get gold covered steaks
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
dude wtf people don't magically want more food if they're cheaper, they're just gonna buy it more if it's cheaper and they actually want it.
and so much food is wasted.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
we are so fucking far out in the weeds right now and Curi led us there
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
dude can someone bring up some triggering issue (to him)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
Here we have an instance where people acting selfishly isn't beneficial to society as a whole
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:50 PM
like i bet he's gonna be a total hypocrite on lgbtq issues
i know i'm a bad person for saying that, i just want the shitshow to continue... ;(
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
Also, even if having a personal doctor did benefit you, what is your argument you deserve to live those 50 extra years, what justification you deserve it over some other person?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
I feel like curis arguments have taken us on a magical journey to the new mexico desert and now hes standing behind logic and reality holding a gun to its head and telling it to start digging
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
By hording medical care from others you are preventing others from receiving the care they need to live a healthy life
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
If he's like most libertarians, tell him that anime child porn is still bad
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
moggy is curi walter white?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
No. Walter white is smart and knows how things work
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
You can also have a private doctor. That's how it works in most developed countries.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:51 PM
We aren't giving a person 25 appendectomies because they want it
We give people an appendectomy because they need it (edited)
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:52 PM
Urgency-based care. Urgency-based care, you twat.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:52 PM
^^^
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:52 PM
my 1% tho?????
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:52 PM
distantred block in 3, 2 1
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:52 PM
Doctors don't generally get better the more training they have, they get more specialized. So for a GP, you wouldn't really benefit from a more trained doctor. Unless we're comparing to, say, a mad student.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:52 PM
We aren't going to give someone a colonoscopy every week because they want one but as often as medical science says it's effective
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
Ummm.... If it can save lives, yes
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
NO ONE IS TAKING YOURE FREEDOM. WERE JUST LETTING OTHER PEOPLE HAVE FREEDOM TOO
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
1) Doctors decide urgency 2) What's most urgent in care is LIFE
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
you can' have freedom if you're DEAD
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
FREEDOM IS NOT AN ARGUMENT ITS A COPOUT
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
Curi is your srprained ankle more important than someone's exploded appendix?
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
But what if I have a big date next week and I need a nose job now?!
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
Wait weren't you criticizing people for cosmetic surgeries, which for some they might think they need?
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:53 PM
@curi the same way I can take away your freedom to murder others for fun, honestly basically the same thing
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:54 PM
Holy shit, are you seriously implying you know more than doctors?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:54 PM
Curi, I'd say doctors are more qualified for determining what healthcare issues are urgent and what aren't
They aren't perfect but they are qualified
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:54 PM
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 09:54 PM
Occasionally saving a life by fluke is not as important in a medical system as saving as many people as possible
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:54 PM
This is you curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:54 PM
https://memefly.me/i/7a45a5f1af1a56fa0046d27caf7db02f.jpg
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:55 PM
Read my lips. Youre arguments are on the same level as libertarian spiderman
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:55 PM
like i know you identify more with needing that 1% extra care and all but just imagine for a mere fucking second it's either life or death for you, which world would you rather live in
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:55 PM
YOU WOULD BE ALLOWED TO
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:55 PM
yes, now THAT is wasting resources
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:55 PM
You CAN buy that though.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:55 PM
TAXATION ISN'T TAKING ALL YOUR FUCKING MONEY AWAY YOU STUPID TWAT
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:56 PM
even doctors have to limit useless tests
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:56 PM
does he think taxes take away 90% of his income or some shit
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:56 PM
and you usually need a doctor's permission, for a reason
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:56 PM
Are you dense or are you unable to read what people are writing?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:56 PM
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:56 PM
dude seriously if you're concerned about wasting resources this is it, this is a huge block in the system thanks to your selfish paranoia
lmaoo
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
OOF
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
Randian dipshittery at its finest
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
fight me intellectually bich
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
do you watch Rick and Morty @curi
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
LMAO
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
I KNEW IT
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
ReAsSuRe Me I'm SmArTeR tHaN yOu
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:57 PM
I rest my case.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
If there's one x-ray than can only be used once per day and somebody desperately needs it according to a doctor, but you also feel there may be something the doctor's missing that could by some fluke risk your life, who should be prioritized?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
curi is a lil bitch, let's say it all at once
CURI IS A LIL BITCH BOI
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
I'm trying to figure out why you are ignoring that we aren't trying to take away your ability to see a private doctor nor that we want death panels deciding who lives or dies
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
Not just smarter but wiser
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
wise beyond their 13 year age
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
13 is a bit generous
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
hold on this needs a fucking screencap
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
bicheal is a child and he's smart sometimes
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 09:58 PM
well you have to be 13 to be on the internet
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
@Rose im 18 and an absolute unit
Rose 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
child
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
curi is such a sensitive little bitch tho
seriously he can't handle even the slight jab lol
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
Why do you want to just get an x-ray?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
No one is saying that the government is going to control how many x-ray machines are made
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
Society stuffs down chocolates deems me to be guzzles a milkshake an adult
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
If you wanted you could go out and buy your very own x-ray machine
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
DUDE HE IS SO A CHILD
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
Then why DON'T we produce more x-rays? We have plenty of demand. Also, private x-rays still exist. Nobody's stopping that.
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
I assume anyone stupid enough to think taxation is theft is either 13 or too stupid to function
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
Yeah, libertarians should know stuff about victimizing children
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 09:59 PM
for your viewing pleasure as well as my own
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
just buy your own damn x-ray machine
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
oh wow you're 14.
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
with your big boi free market money
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
oh so you're just too stupid to function
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
Alternatively, the government could possibly buy too many X-rays, and then be all "Guys, come get an X-ray, we have too many!" And then you can be happy to get your extra X-rays, even at a lowered cost to you. except for the taxes, yada yada, but it's a net saving
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
Your essay rivals even my own third grade homework curi
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
I think the limit on x-rays is less machines and more radiologists.
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 10:00 PM
No, bootstraps are for the poor people, rich people get handed money
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
and free blowjobs
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
The machine is the easy part, not irradiating yourself excessively is the hard part.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
Free drugs and tiny guns
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
YES
PENISMAN 2020
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
If I need an x-ray because a person trained in the medical field believes I'm in danger of DYING, you shouldn't have priority to it just because you have more money and really want to get your radiation fix.
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
@HoneyDrops alternatively 3 ish tests in a short amount of time is still irritation, and would never be approved
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
@curi were not fine with dumbfuck libertarians
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:01 PM
Lol. All these extra X-rays would totally lead to people irradiating themselves
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
I know we're not supposed to shitpost in this channel but I can't take this shit seriously anymore
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
no one is lmao
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
I'm fine with private healthcare in general. I just want public healthcare as well.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
This channel is all i have while i wait for my appointment
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
yeah, there are guidelines, determiend by central authrorities on how many x-rays, based on medical science.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
i bet this motherfucker supports private prisons.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
We want poor people to be able to get medical care they need instead of going bankrupt or dying
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
Most developed nations on the planet have both public and private healthcare.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
Curi you're not a serious person
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
probably other libertatians
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:02 PM
@curi no becauuse you have a childish and primitive worldview
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:03 PM
there is a goddamn reason we are not discussing libertarianism in the public culture. (much) (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:03 PM
Thats... thats not what... thats so oversimplified it hurts
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:03 PM
Word salad doesn't make you sound smarter curi
Trust me, I'm a certified Salad Expert
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:03 PM
does this motherfucker think the govenrment is some magical dragon that showed up out of nowhere and started making rules
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:03 PM
Curi go back to playing with your squeaky pickle rick toy
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:03 PM
don't make me hate curry because you're stupid please
lmao
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
Curry is good tho
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
holy shit you're so pretentious you can't NOT be 13. (edited)
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
again, you're conflating the government paying for essential care and them being the arbiter of medial decisions. there is no reason they need to be involved in that.
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
... 10 y/o, tops
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
Curiosity, the innocent curiosity of a toddler is present in your mannerisms
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
@LaCroix Boi I could go for a nice coconut curry right now
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
Same
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
I wouldnt mind a lamb kashmiri
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
@Rose Are we talking about his dating preferences?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:04 PM
i could go for seizing the means of production right about now
JoeyJoJo 03-Mar-19 10:05 PM
Alright, I'll stop with the "libertarians are pedophiles" jokes now
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:05 PM
@JoeyJoJo aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:05 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAA WHY ARE WE YELLING
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:05 PM
You can have a system in which everyone has the ability to receive medical care paid for by the government and private care paid for by individuals. It's like how Rand Paul flew to CANADA to pay for a private doctor to perform a surgery
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:05 PM
Most developed countries on the planet have single-payer healthcare in place, but also have private healthcare that allows you to have all the cosmetic radiation treatments you could ever dream of. (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:05 PM
Like Canada, where RAND PAUL FLEW FOR SURGERY
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:06 PM
what is a fact
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:06 PM
honestly I think we should just tax every citizen at 99% and give it all to the military industrial complex.
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:06 PM
but what if i want my hair removal surgery before the dying kids tho
@Prof. Sass o7
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:06 PM
That's not a good look for Rand Paul
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:06 PM
moving target? jfc just say you never thought about it before
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:07 PM
It's every day bro
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:07 PM
That's what Canada has, do they not?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:07 PM
I'm not moving the target by being okay with both. The fact of the matter is we don't currently have single-payer, but do have private. I want single-payer as well, or without, don't particularly care. (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:08 PM
A PLACE WHERE A PERSON CAN FLY TO PAY FOR A PRIVATE SURGERY
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:08 PM
just admit you never considered it it's ok it's fine for 13 y/os to learn
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:08 PM
oof
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:08 PM
They are literally proving you wrong several times over
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:08 PM
his only argument is more and more word salad
so no one can understand what the fuck he's saying
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:09 PM
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:09 PM
Canada literally has a single payer system and people can literally fly there and pay for a private surgery
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:09 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:09 PM
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:10 PM
muh free market
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:10 PM
hitler was socialist cus it has socialism in the name
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:10 PM
Think of it like this, everyone has health insurance through the government
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:10 PM
oh my god do you not understand the concept of SUPPLEMENTAL HEALTH CARE YOU STUPID CHILD (edited)
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:10 PM
AAAAAAAAAA I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO THIS I'M SORRY Y'ALL
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:11 PM
and it devolves into hitler
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:11 PM
OH FUCK
ABORT, ABORT.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:11 PM
Ｏ Ｏ Ｆ
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:11 PM
i'm dying this is great
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:11 PM
Hitler was a socialist the same way curi is a competent human being. (edited)
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:11 PM
because private health insurance would go above and beyond the single payer system
and you still have full access to that system
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
The "want to read a book about it?" at the end is a perfect microcosm of how much of a pompous cunt you are curie
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
you doofus
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
*curi
I'm sorry I have profaned the name of Marie Curie
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
@Vantablack ididn't find the word to say it, thank you, and enjoy your block by him now (edited)
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
I'm not saying that at all. I want everybody to have health insurance, even Hole-in-the-head Homeless Joe. (I'm going to ignore Hitler being an example of a socialist. Noping out of that.)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:12 PM
DO YOU GUYS NOT HAVE BOOKS
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
Surely you must know how, "You wanna read a book about it?" sounds
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
DO YOU GUYS NOT HAVE BOOTSTRAPS?
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
HERE IN MY GARAGE
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
sorry, socialists don't believe in books
so no
burn them all
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
also hot take, i don't like books, they're an outdated and boring medium
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
If you can opt out of the thing then it's useless
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
you can do a book in audio format, or in lecture.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
Reread my message, doofus
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
Think of it like buying premium insurance, you get all the basic channels through the government but if you want HBO you can pay more for it
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
that's more interesting.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
No, I don't want you to opt out. I much prefer a progressive tax though. (edited)
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:13 PM
Pay the taxes, but if you want to pay out of pocket for extra stuff, then knock yourself out
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:14 PM
if you don't like it you can leave the country. isn't that you you idiots say all the time anyway>
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:14 PM
If you get picked up by an ambulance and taken to a hospital and get emergency care you already paid for that emergency care
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:14 PM
hey @curi do you like infrastructure?
cause that shit's socialist af
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:14 PM
Leaving the country is also totally a great option, too. Go live on an island covered in doctors and x-ray machines
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:14 PM
yes curi, that is called not being a selfish asshat.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
Also, what book confirms that Hitler is what he killed my great-grandparent's countrymen for being?
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
you pay for all insurance even if you're not using it. that's how insurance works
1
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
YOu know why? because everyone thinks like you (or atleast alot of people) (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
please please please PLEASE debate jake
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
fair warning I'm an insurance underwriter so I know insurance better than you
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
Just a bunch of doctors and xray machines sitting on a beach
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
we've destroyed you enough already but that would be even fucking funnier
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
and insurance doesn't even go to anything good
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
Here's the issue with this "you have to opt in anything".... everyone is a selfish prick petty much, so if you don't force people to pay for infrastructure, they'll only willingly pay for the shit they use personally.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:15 PM
Oooooh, Sass dropping that big insurance dick on the table
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
Oh holy fucking shit
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
and if you make that argument you have no fucking clue what socialism means
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
jesus christ this has got to be a joke
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
the workers didn't own the means of production under socialism, it wasn't even a goal.
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
HE BROUGHT IT BACK TO HITLER
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
Oh god..... We talkin nazis again
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
i'm so fucking sorry everyone it's my fault
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
GODWIN'S LAW 100% IN EFFECT
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:16 PM
since this guy likes links so much, can i give someone a video link response that you can pass onto him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUFvG4RpwJI
Three Arrows
Was Hitler a Socialist? - A Response to Steven Crowder and Others
Congrats if you made it through this. =Support me via= ► Patreon: https://patreon.com/ThreeArrows ► TipJar: https://ko-fi.com/threearrows =Other Stuff= ► Twi...
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
no one thinks you're joking
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
You can be serious and hilarious at the same time
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
"Socialist is in the name" You must also believe that having "democratic" in your country's name makes your country democratic.
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
we just think you're stupid
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
this video is fucking perection
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
@curi talk about insurance coward
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
someone give this video to curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
Yes, I'm completely unfamiliar with something that i am
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
lil bitch boi has me blocked.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:17 PM
You brought this on yourself binch
by standing your ground so hard when you're so obviously in the wrong
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:18 PM
do yo u like the free marketplace of ideas?
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:18 PM
dying
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:18 PM
he still didn't talk about insurance
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:19 PM
Hitler supported life insurance
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:19 PM
@curi you pay insurance even when you're not using anything
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
can someone pass a messae to him
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
@Elyorn let it go
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
;(
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
F
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
he can read this anyway
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
yeah you can read blocked messages
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:20 PM
Anyway in case he decides to clicky clack, the reason you are getting flamed is because you're not only full of shit, but an arrogant asshat to boot.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
that thinks fancy words makes you sound smart
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
The autobahn was built under the third Reich. Is the autobahn bad?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
fucking anyne can write a book
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
Our boi Curi's got a terminal case of Thesaurusitis
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
something being a book dosen't make it legitimate. Mein Kampf (since we arleady invoked godwin's law) is a book.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
There are LOTS of people smarter than Shapiro and Crowder.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:21 PM
Dude watch the fucking video
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:22 PM
okay I'm going back to more entertaining things. someone @ me if you need a mod
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:22 PM
he actually goes into the history of the nazi party and why it makes no sense to call nazism socialism
BigOlShamalamaDingDong 03-Mar-19 10:22 PM
its worth a watch
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:22 PM
There's a lot of bacteria in my backyard pond smarter than Shapiro and Crowder
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:22 PM
three arrows is like really fuckin enlightening on the history of nazism
that's literally all they do. They cover the alt right and nazis.
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:23 PM
reminder that this started with the jordan peterson video
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:23 PM
Hitler liked sugar, can we get a #bansugar in the chat
Oh, a celebrity
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:24 PM
that's not my point but ok lol, we went from peterson to hitler was a socialist
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:24 PM
this started with curi being a triggered little snowflake.
Nah we know you're just an ayn rand fanboy.
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:24 PM
she hated you btw, how does it feel
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:24 PM
Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are nazis
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:24 PM
hitler breathed oxygen
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:24 PM
I’ve last checked this debate at ~4pm and you’re all still at it. Bloody Hell.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:25 PM
ban oxygen
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:25 PM
How much you gonna bet he's now gonna talk about how mean and unfair we have been
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:25 PM
#notmyoxygen
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:25 PM
Oh shit... I breathe oxygen... Am I a nazi?!
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:25 PM
fucking run @TheBohemianRed
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:25 PM
@Vantablack It’s too late pa!
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:27 PM
you pay for all insurance in the hopes for both you and the insurance company that you never use it
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:27 PM
now imagine instead of an insurance, you pay the big scawy goverment instead and they don't try to scam you out of things by technicalities
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:28 PM
well those technicalities are there for a reason
you don't realize how much insurance companies are regulated
insurance is not voluntary
you just think it's voluntary because you have options
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:29 PM
oh my god you really do love the illusion of freedom more than freedom
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:30 PM
the options would not change things because of the regulations
well that's how 2008 happens
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:30 PM
RIP housing market
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:31 PM
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:31 PM
Alright, treating cancer costs $100k+ a year. I make less than that. If I got cancer, what are my options? Where's my freedom? (edited)
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:31 PM
yes
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:31 PM
Are you a fan of cyberpunk perchance
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:31 PM
by not regulating enough
and allowing these banks to do whatever they want
and underfunding sallie and freddie
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:32 PM
Which bad regulations?
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:32 PM
that's a great one @Rose
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:32 PM
the ones that allowed the banks to sell subprimes and disguise them as prime @LaCroix Boi
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:32 PM
ty it's a prime meme
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:32 PM
motherfuckers you're still going. I'm probably gonna go... i think
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:33 PM
Bye, Ely.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:33 PM
2008 was caused by a lack of regulations. You shouldn't get to a level of "Too big to fail" in the first place.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:34 PM
I know what you meant Spider but I thought you meant that the year itself was caused by that
CURI YOU IGNORANT SLUT
recommending all these books just makes you sound so fucking pretentious
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
Inb4 pearl clutching
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
Just make points for yourself.
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
Wow.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
no I want you to fuck off tbh
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
I miss the trump kid at least he said "oh I didn't know that"
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
Moderat0r?
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
lol
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:35 PM
The tale of Moderat0r was a top 10 anime redemption arc
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:36 PM
If your argument is "go educate yourself", I'll just retaliate with "go educate yourself" back. Go read a book.
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:36 PM
this dude is really obsessed with mises
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:36 PM
educate urself shitlord / s
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:36 PM
it's really not controversial
you're just ignorant
people believe the world is flat. that doesn't make the fact it's an oblong spheroid controversial (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:37 PM
I had to go did i miss anything
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:37 PM
about the 2008 financial crisis specifically? yes
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:37 PM
you missed curi being dumb and that's it
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
I still really want to hear why you think less regulations would have helped the issue
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
OOF
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
Alright, if I don't use any of the services of a multinational finance and insurance group, why should my tax dollars be used to fund it? @curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
he used liberalism unironically
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
i mean if believing in bullshit compared to fact is closed-minded, sure
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
That word has been permanently polluted by the stink of Sargon
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
sargon stink is similiar to rotten elderberries.
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:38 PM
No Curi, the point was to note that there are objective truths and then there’s being wrong.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:39 PM
oh god i hope curi isn't a sargon fan
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:39 PM
American International Group. $180 billion.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:39 PM
and yeah i still haven't gone to sleep fml
4:40am is just a number.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:39 PM
Could we all take a timeout until we get to know how less regulations would have prevented the 2008 thing?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:40 PM
@curi you strike me as veing so close minded that your brain is a thermodynamically closed system. You could achieve perpetual motion with your arguments
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 10:40 PM
Mmmm... I like food. Gotta go get more bread
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:40 PM
No information enters or leaves curi
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:40 PM
I don't think any reputable economists have time for bullshit. just like reputable scientists don't argue with flat earthers on youtube
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
MATHS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
lmao ^
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
the burden of proof
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
appeal to authority x1000
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
No austrians are reputable*
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
I don't think you've brought up a single point to show they are
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
is on the people making the claims
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
Amateurs! I’ve been eating and reading this at the same time! Your move cucks.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:41 PM
@Zaphod1207 arnold is austrian right? so yeah point is valid.
Dude obama won a nobel peace prize.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
@curi reputation isnt an argument you ignorant slut
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
Donald Trump was nominated for a Nobel Prize
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
and the motherfucker droned like there was no tomorrow.
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
I put no weight to that
and I refuted it
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
You didn't link what the Austrian Economics view on 2008 was. Also, why are you so obsessed with this Austrian source's views on things?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
The woman responsible for genocides conducted in burma won a nobel peace prize
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:42 PM
^ (edited)
they are entirely flawed
they are not proof of being reputable
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
@curi are you eveen reading what we say or is someone describing our arguments to you over the phone
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
The entire model of treating housing as an investment commidity is the underlying problem. Coupled by treating debt as a commodity to speculate on.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
NOBEL PRIZES MEAN DICK ALL
toyscissors 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
Okay hold on, curi, this has to be a fetish thing for you, getting shat on for hours on end
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
Adolf Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. (edited)
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
Right, this is an extreme case @curi (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
Adolf hitler won an iron cross therefore hes reputable
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
Oh says cuz your not also here in this chatroom your in high tower of Republican knowledge right @curi (this is in response to half flaming comment you said )
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:43 PM
man, you should take your own advice @curi
you constantly ignore anyone that disagrees with you
your response is the same
lol
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:44 PM
Partly because hes blocked most of us sass
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:44 PM
repeating the same talking points over and over is not effort
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:44 PM
Me and ely are part of an exclusive club
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:44 PM
the guy has blocked atleast 4 people
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:44 PM
They Have @Zaphod1207 wow
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:45 PM
it's hard when you're being challenged on bad ideas
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:45 PM
or was it 3? and for what? not being 100% proper and gentlemanly like it's 1820
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:45 PM
Blocking like their name’s Steve Shives.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:45 PM
I called the cunt a cunt
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:45 PM
Curi shives
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:46 PM
@TheBohemianRed eyy i just saw that and im blocked too
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:46 PM
A mean of $552 per capita was spent on bailing out AIG in particular.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:46 PM
I think I'm in the Curi Block Club too
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:46 PM
Anyway ayn rand is incompatible with a functioning society or humans that demonstrate basic empathy peace out yo
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:46 PM
I'm here to redeem my membership card
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:46 PM
New kids on the blocked
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
answers in genesis?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
Aren't Austrian Economists like non-mainstream... As in most economists reject how they view economics
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
Didn't they actually get some tax fundin g for their weird park even tho they were discriminating in employment
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
@BrookerTJustice he also said john stuart mill wasnt a liberal
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
American International Group
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
@Rose Idk why I’m still not blocked.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:47 PM
And that ayn rand was
Rose 03-Mar-19 10:48 PM
@TheBohemianRed i'm blocked prob either cus i follow sh0e, pdp or both
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:48 PM
The economy was fucking DYING before American International Group got the $552 per capita. An unregulated economy let things get to that point. Agree or disagree? @curi
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:49 PM
Ayn rand, the far right nutjob who hated that poor people had the fucking audacity to exist, is apparently a liberal but john stuart "most stupid people are conservative" mill isnt according to curi the galaxy brain
TheBohemianRed 03-Mar-19 10:49 PM
@Rose I follow Jake, I thought that was supposed to be enough.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:49 PM
haaam and aiigs
haaam and AIGs....
i'm a big paulogia fan
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:49 PM
Also @DistantRed remember the hreat depression and how we got out of that thanks to government intervention?
Interesing isnt it
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:50 PM
Yes, yes I do.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:50 PM
Its almostass if the economy requires government oversight
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:50 PM
well it was one of the main reasons anyway
arguably the war effort had an impact on that too i think?
or am i thinking of something else.
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
Did they leave
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
they said they were gonna get food or something.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
sounds like an excuse to me
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
I mean war efforts were what put us in the great depression, the money spent on mobilisation in the 1910s destroyed the economy
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
War effort was also controlled by the government.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
i'm probably gonna go soon
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:51 PM
Still in the server so idk
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
well that was fun
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
I hope it's over
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
The pain never ends (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
it's outlived it's amusingness
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
OH no they write on a website (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
I dont hope its over. I still have 2 hours
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
we've kicked this dead horse into mush
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
dude can we just take a moment to praise slaughter for his magnamity.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:52 PM
nvm he's back again
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
Slaughter absolutely... slaughtered him
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
for round 2
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
Guy v iolated an instaban offense and despite being a libertarian and a prick, he didn't ban him
slaughter is truly a just god
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
This is the punishment Slaughter wanted to give him
instead of kicking him out he set the wolves upon him
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
CURI GO DEBATE JAKE PLIS
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
^^^^^^
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:53 PM
can we convince him to debate jake. Maybe pretend he's so totally awesome and right about everything
"I disagree on your historical facts"
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:54 PM
Hey curi. Read about the great depression you fucking history denier
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
What caused these companies to become too big to fail?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
Curi, you are a pizza burn on the roof of the worlds mouth, you are human tennis elbow, you are the OPPOSITE OF BATMAN
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
@curi I mean the great depression and the housing market shows that's a bad idea
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
Ironically I actuallte agree with curi: I disagree with the bailouts -- we should have let them fold, erase the debts, and nationalized banking.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
@HoneyDropsi refusee to agree with anything a randian dipshit says
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
just consider the mortgages null and anyone who held them with those banks owned the properties in full.
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 10:55 PM
theburden of proof
is on the person making the claim... you ignorant slut
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 10:56 PM
those comapnies shoulnd't exist in the first place, but here we are.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:56 PM
But curi. Taking that away is limiting their freedom. Checkmate libertarian
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:57 PM
"also regulations which keep down competitors." shows someone that has no idea how government regulations works
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:57 PM
Btw. By blocking me you limit my freedom to speak to you you hypocrite uwu
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:57 PM
lol
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:57 PM
Also minimum wage should be well above whatever the current cost of living is dont @ me
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:58 PM
That's our point curi without regulations they would be worse and they need some regulation to stop them from fuckin with government
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:58 PM
minimum wage is government control and should be abolished
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 10:58 PM
The best way to argue with a libertarian is point out that anything that they do ever is limiting the freedom of someone
They will then implode
No violence and no fraud. Is your legal lnowledge from a daycare
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:59 PM
you must set out regulations to decide what is and is not fraud, you idiot
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 10:59 PM
OMG Curi less regulation doesn't help this. Are you libertarian ?
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 10:59 PM
they are
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:00 PM
@ShadowShroom he was quoting ayn rand earlier and saying rand is a liveral whos capitalistic ideals were worth following
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:00 PM
Ah yes, I remember when regulation caused American Tobacco, Standard Oil, US Steel, AT&T, and Microsoft's monopolies and I also remember when laissez-faire economics ended those monopolies.
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 11:00 PM
absolutely
because you have yet to show how regulation is bad
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:00 PM
Remember when regulation caused enron
@curi ITSS NOT GOOD FOR THE PPANET RETARD
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
Monopolies are good now?
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
goldmann is jewier whic his why it's bad (edited)
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
oh man
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
As long as it's not the government, of course
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
OIL OS NOT GOOD. ITS NOT YOU FUCKING FUCK
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
Curi I need to know if you are a libertarian plz tell me @curi
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:01 PM
Oh my gorsh
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:02 PM
@ShadowShroom hhes worse. Hes a randian
NO YOU ARENT. THE ENLIGHTENMENT SHITS ALL OVER YOUR IDEALS
READ LEVIATHAN YOU CUNT
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:02 PM
@curi that's not a answer
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:03 PM
@curi LEARN THE SOCIAL CONTRACT THEN JUMP OFF A BRIDGE
Rose 03-Mar-19 11:03 PM
you mean you like conspiracy theories
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:03 PM
Why specifically the Austrian Economists?
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:03 PM
sargonite DETECTED
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:04 PM
Classical liberal, aka "i dont know what a liberal or what the enlightenment is"
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:04 PM
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/021/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme_419-238.jpg
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:04 PM
Why are the Austrian Economists a reputable source?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:05 PM
Because he said so
@curiNOT REPUTATION. CREDIBIKITY. YOU ARE THE WORST
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:05 PM
@curi OH MY GOD you are a libertarian because libertarians think there brand of libertarianism is the right libertarianism
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:06 PM
I don't care about reputation. Credibility. Why are they credible?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:06 PM
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHY SOURCES NEED TO BE TRUSTWORTHY I FUCKING JATE YOU CURI
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 11:06 PM
lol let it go
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:07 PM
my brain is deleting information so it can store all the rage
Rose 03-Mar-19 11:07 PM
sometimes arguments are not based on truth
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:07 PM
I also wrote arguments. How am I any more or any less credible than them?
Rose 03-Mar-19 11:07 PM
that's where the credibility comes in
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:08 PM
Ah you probably think gold has value don't ya your gonna say fait currency aren't ya
HA
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:08 PM
Curi. Do you understand that you have to cite sources and use this thing called evidence so your argument is aligned with this thing called reality
Curi why are you the literal worst
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:09 PM
Ye
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:09 PM
I knew it you fit right into the what I would call the common libertarian stereotype
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:10 PM
You eat your own poop. Why is this statement not credible?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:11 PM
Now present your evidence as to how the gold standard works
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:11 PM
@curi Gold has no value its a shiny rock that royal people wore at least steel or something has many uses
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:11 PM
It's not credible because I don't have evidence for the statement.
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:13 PM
Do you not think minorities are at a disadvantage @curi
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 11:13 PM
I mean, just giving the homes outright to them would have been better, yes.
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:16 PM
I mean my solution to this problem is give everyone a basic standard of living say a small apartment and 1000 dollars a month but thats just me (edited)
yes
that was easy
its fine
I mean sure why not
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:19 PM
If people's basic needs are met they can do whatever job they want without concerns about making ends meet
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:19 PM
I mean, bare minimum life isn't fun, but if that's what works for you, go ahead.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:19 PM
The us eats 500 bil for breakfast
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:20 PM
We have the working poor right now which is they make minimum wage but don't make enough to even buy basic things my idea is better because less people die from hunger and other very preventable issues @curi (edited)
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:20 PM
And we can use the tax money you spend to offset the taxes of those making over $500k a year to help.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:20 PM
The homeless you fucking fool
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:21 PM
Isn't the term, "working poor"
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:21 PM
@LaCroix Boi yes
Thank you @LaCroix Boi
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:21 PM
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:22 PM
Guess what curi. Poor people are people.
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:22 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?iie=1&q=Who+is+dying+from+hunger+in+the+US
LMGTFY
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:23 PM
Hey curi. Thats not true. Fuck off
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:23 PM
@curi did you not see what they all said or nah
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:24 PM
@LaCroix Boi im angry. give me my chilly pilly amphetamines
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:24 PM
Moggy and Dm both made great points (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:24 PM
12 million children in the US are in food insecure homes
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:25 PM
I was wondering about which regulations should have been cut to prevent the financial crisis
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:25 PM
Yeah but theyre poor they dont count
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:25 PM
@curi Also @BrookerTJustice just made a great point
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:25 PM
This can affect their schooling and their health putting a strain on the economy
The housing market crash was partially due to risky loans being repackaged and sold between finance companies repeatedly
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:26 PM
OH alright just Ignore Brooker good job Curi
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:27 PM
OwO
Elyorn 03-Mar-19 11:27 PM
Still going
Is this some kind of time singularity
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:28 PM
"Party of Defeat The Democrats voted for the Iraq war, then mere months later they betrayed their country and began a campaign to lose the war. "What is this why is this on a site you write for Curi (edited)
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:28 PM
there's more downsides to not having enough food than dying
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:28 PM
Oh alright
That makes this much better
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:29 PM
Okay so curi is a fucking retard. And i dont care what you say thats what im calling him because theres no word mean enough to describe my contempt for him
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:29 PM
3933 deaths from malnutrition per year according to World Life Expectancy which uses sources such as WHO, World Bank, UNESCO, CIA.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:29 PM
Starvation isnt the only downside. Brooker is right.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:30 PM
I'd rather no kids ever have to worry about where their next meal comes from, but you failed to counter how malnutrition can negatively affect a child
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:30 PM
"Only four thousand people died preventable deaths? I don't care, then"
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:30 PM
CURI YOU F... im so angry... im so angry. And this is naki ng me lose my chess match
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:30 PM
not surprising you are dumb
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:30 PM
Oh this is gem on that site "Dating and Social Dynamics: The best book on dating-related social dynamics is How to Make Girls Chase . It includes the law of least effort: the person appearing to put in less effort gains a social status advantage. The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed is great too. I also recommend content from Real Social Dynamics, especially their YouTube channel and Owen's YouTube channel. Owen, their leader, is particularly wise and often talks about issues beyond dating. All of this material has important implications beyond dating about all social dynamics, but you'll have to figure out some of those applications yourself." this one gross me out
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:31 PM
You know what number of DEATHS is preferable to 3933? Under 3933.
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:31 PM
Or increased welfare programs to help those that need it
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:32 PM
@curi Cuz they don't have food Curi it doesn't matter why
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:32 PM
Curi is a bad person
@curi you make me ashamed to have thumbs
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:33 PM
@curi but the kid shound`t die because of that
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:33 PM
Then we have laws in place to prevent that
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:33 PM
Curi, your ancestors are crawling further into the ground to get away from you
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
@Zaphod1207 did you see the gross dating thing that i posted its on Curi website
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
Well some people are going to die so we should just let them
HoneyDrops 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
Have you ever actually met and listened to a poor person?
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
please please please please please debate jake curi
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
It's typically neglect or illness that causes starvation caused deaths apparently
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
I want to see him nuke you from orbit (edited)
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:34 PM
Curi, you are like if enron was a person
Apes are fucking lile rabbits so they can evolve and not have to share a genus with you curi
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:36 PM
Here's there (Curi) website you gotta see this shit http://fallibleideas.com/life @Zaphod1207 @Elyorn
Fallible Ideas for Life
Philosophy articles by Elliot Temple
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:37 PM
omfg are you secretly the Hyperions guy
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:37 PM
Yay
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:37 PM
the weird space-elf guy
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:37 PM
OH GOD I gotta Share this with the world
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:37 PM
I know republican arguments. Thats why im not one
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:37 PM
^
republican """arguments""" essentially boil down to "fuck black people and gays"
"because JESUS said so"
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:38 PM
Alsso. Your arguments are effectively poor people deserve less
Arguments like poor people deserve less. You piece of garbage
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:38 PM
they don't
they really really don't
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:39 PM
I live in a VERY Republican area.
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:39 PM
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:39 PM
THEY EVEN HAVE A YOUTUBE CHANNEL i have unlimited trash now
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:39 PM
OOF
please send to jake for trash night
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:40 PM
Poor people shouldn't die because they don't have access to measures that can prevent preventable death.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:40 PM
on twitch
also capitalize the first letter of your name you uncultured swine
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:41 PM
I will @Vantablack I've been the best detective tonight
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:41 PM
papa bless (edited)
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:41 PM
Well i found it so
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:42 PM
I know it's an ancient term but we've found a lolcow with no end of milk
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:42 PM
You cant link your stuff but if i find it its different (edited)
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:42 PM
Oh my god, @Vantablack we're both doing name goofs I love it
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:42 PM
@LaCroix Boi
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:42 PM
@curi This is just getting better
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:43 PM
holy fuck you ARE a hyperion
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:43 PM
HE must be @Vantablack (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:43 PM
call Morgue and join his cult
Government: we live in a society
bottom text
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:43 PM
Good maybe he copied you @curi
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:44 PM
@curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:44 PM
tagging curi must be difficult with Curry and I around
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:44 PM
"men should be free to deal with nature as they each think is best." If someone decides to destroy a local ecosystem for short-term profit, maybe because he's old, and won't live long enough to see the consequences, or maybe because the ecosystem he's destroying is far away, he should not be able to do that.
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:44 PM
@Vantablack It does make it harder
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:44 PM
Alright, RE: freedom to live. What if somebody got cancer, couldn't afford the $100k+ to treat it, and thus was forced to die? Doesn't that violate that freedom? (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:45 PM
everything sounds like a deep legitimate philosophy to idiots if you start your sentences with shit like "men should..."
and "men have the right to..."
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:45 PM
What should women do
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:45 PM
churn butter and die of childbirth at 13 I guess
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:46 PM
So curi, a single person should be allowed to destroy the future of everyone else. Have i said fuck you yet
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:46 PM
Dude, was goofin. I know what men mean when they say "people".. Wait. Switch those
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:48 PM
bruh this entire webpage is a bunch of self-aggrandizing word salad that I'm sure you wrote just to jack yourself off over how smart you are
a true Rick and Morty viewer
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:48 PM
@Vantablack yep i love it
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:48 PM
THE ENTIRE FUCKING WEBPAGE YOU KNOB
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:48 PM
Most of us are opposed to the concept that unlucky people should just rot
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:48 PM
I sincerely feel bad for the servers that have to host this
at the risk of sounding like a scumfuck, I'd argue that I'm smarter than you
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
Most of us think that we should pool our resources to assist those that get dealt a bad hand or get unlucky
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
you just have terminal thesaurusitis
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
Violence isn't taxation
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
to be fair you have to have a high iq to understand rick and morty
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
Iq means nothing dumbfuck
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
Oh, shit, what's that in inches?
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
NASA, violence or no?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
Also id argue my dog is smarter than you curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:49 PM
IQ is a flawed measurement genius
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:50 PM
Being denied access to easily preventable death due to lack of money grants the freedom of life only to those that can afford it.
Prof. Sass 03-Mar-19 11:50 PM
nasa is a human rights violation
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:50 PM
Oh Curi don't listen to these guys your great for me this is a unending well of pure gold thats totally worth something @curi
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:50 PM
My dog can at least communicate better thsn him @Vantablack
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:50 PM
measuring intelligence isn't that cut-and-dry, and most of those "IQ tests" give you inflated results anyway
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:50 PM
Honestly, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're joking or not. No offense, but you seem like the kind of guy that would drop their IQ
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:51 PM
can we get a mega-cap of everything this guy's said and post it on r/iamverysmart
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:51 PM
NOPE KEEP your creepy dating advice to your self @curi
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:51 PM
lmao
the story of all the times M'lady rejected me in favor of Chad Thundercock
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:51 PM
Arguments why pooling resources via the government to help the unfortunate is a good idea; one day you may need that assistance, when people aren't struggling they are more productive and their children will have a better chance at life most likely needing less assistance once they are adults (edited)
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
and then everybody clapped and you went home to polish your fedora.
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
Ummmmmmmmmm............ Was the point of that story to insult us?
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
To be fair you have to have a very high iq to understand ayn rand
LaCroix Boi 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
Or was it to convince us to not like Anne Coulter?
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
You claim that Liberalism favors life (which you did on your site) but imply it should only be to those that can afford it.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
lmao @Zaphod1207
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:52 PM
Actually lemme rephrase that
O be fair you have to have a very high bmi to understand ayn rand
ShadowShroom 03-Mar-19 11:53 PM
@curi I mean a bunch of us are LGBQT+ so don`t try to flex on that point
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:53 PM
"the most prominent objectivist forum"
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:54 PM
Remember when kent hovind said christians asked "all the major evolutionists" @Vantablack
DistantRed 03-Mar-19 11:54 PM
Objectivist (capital O) is Randian stuff, if I'm assuming right.
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:54 PM
is this dimentia
BrookerTJustice 03-Mar-19 11:54 PM
Well this was fun but I have to work in the morning even though I'm getting enough money to get by from the government while I'm going to school
Zaphod1207 03-Mar-19 11:55 PM
Ayn rands philosophy? You mean fuck poor people?
The difference between ayn rand and the guy from american psycho is that the guy in american psycho is scared of what hes becoming by the end
Curi. Youre an actual dumbfuck
Vantablack 03-Mar-19 11:58 PM
what's up with the all-red profile pic btw, @curi ? I'm sure it has a ridiculous bullshit story to it where everyone claps at the end
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:05 AM
We live in a society. People are useful for more than what they provide to YOU specifically. Also, once again, trickle-down does not work. And corporations do not hire for mutual benefit. Furthermore, dead men can't think or pursue happiness. (edited)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:06 AM
You must suck at friendship
Im aspergic and im a better friend than you
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:07 AM
bottom text
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:07 AM
What`s voluntary and what's mutual benefit its different for everyone
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:07 AM
I can deaal with people better on the most fundamental level than you and i have a mental impairment giving me a disadvantage
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:07 AM
One side doesn't really have a choice though. Have you heard of wage-slavery as a general concept?
Icarus Pheonix 04-Mar-19 12:08 AM
it's a meme ya dingus, curi
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:08 AM
The iron law of wages sounds prussian as fuck
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:08 AM
I have not even heard of it because I'm not from the 19th century.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:09 AM
DER LAW OF BLUT UND IRON
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:09 AM
https://pics.me.me/we-live-in-a-society-bottom-text-makeameme-org-me-irl-32317059.png
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:10 AM
If you view all human interaction as being about self serving interests and mutual agreements you are literally less social than my low functioning autistic brother. And hes nonverbal
What if hes a super elaborate troll
Oh boi
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:12 AM
Laissez-faire capitalism drives wages below even bare subsistence. Places and times this was tried have demonstrated clearly what happens. Also, aren't 'real wages' wages adjusted for inflation?)
And yes, seems to be in the ballpark of what I mean, yes.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:15 AM
No. He says in laissez faire capitalism its drivem even lower than subsistence
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:15 AM
@curi then give them food anyway
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:15 AM
You know. The capitalism yu advocate for
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:16 AM
There exist people who do not, in a single job's wage, have subsistence.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:16 AM
Cost of living based minimum wahe moyherfucker judt do it
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:17 AM
NO @curi
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:17 AM
Wow you dont even understand how part time work goes
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:17 AM
That is not true in all areas or cases. It's even less often true in cases where you become seriously ill, injured, or disabled.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:18 AM
Also many companies stop you from working full time by cutting your hours so they don't have to pay for your insurance or whatever @curi
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:19 AM
Though that is admittedly a sympton of unintended consequences, namely not requiring them to supply benefits to part-time. (edited)
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:21 AM
Yeah @HoneyDrops I agree but curi seems to avoid the issues instead of addressing it like you did
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:21 AM
nevermind emplyment based insurance and retirment systmes are largely a patch around not having them public options.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:21 AM
Out-compete Walmart. Wow. Why didn't I think about that?!
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:22 AM
@HoneyDrops Also a good point But like I said curi just doesn't care about what i say i guess
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:23 AM
You're ignoring the assymetry: employers have the luxury to wait for an employee, rarely do they need someone now they can shop around and wait for someone to approach them. Employees generally have much less leeway in timing, and shopping around comes at a cost -- the US has a major problem of instability of income too, esp among the lower income brackets.
A company can defer a few weeks or months to expand, the labor can't say "maybe I'll just not pay rent and buy food until a job I like comes around"
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:24 AM
Oh libcuck owned by BIG dicked libertarian YOUR SO RIGHT curi why didn`t i see it before
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:24 AM
https://66.media.tumblr.com/e318fa34a506233cd195aeb04d2350f9/tumblr_inline_p87164atxJ1r1hsm1_500.png
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:24 AM
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:25 AM
shhh I know we're not supposed to meme in here I just can't help myself (edited)
analogies aren't irrefutable facts, curi
No it doesn't
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:26 AM
@curi Or hes stuck with the car and he starves cuz he cant get a job see it works both ways (edited)
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:26 AM
"Maybe I'll just die in the streets instead of being treated as shittily as the law allows" -Nobody
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:26 AM
I could make up a story about a guy that needs to sell his car fast so he accepts payment in the form of mushrooms from aliens because it's """the fastest way"""
and it'd be equally as valid as your story
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:27 AM
Now they just seem to be ignoring all of us
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:27 AM
Ten employers dont seem to want me. Its almost as if youre fucking wrong
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:27 AM
@curi Am I blocked curi (edited)
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:27 AM
Can they? Have you ever heard of At-Will employment?
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:27 AM
He's just screaming into the void
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:27 AM
have you ever worked a minimum wage job? (or 2-3 that you generally need to)? the hell you have time to look for work on top of that.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:28 AM
What if the business doesn't like you looking for another job?
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:28 AM
And youre not remotely educated in economics @curi
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:28 AM
Cool beans @curi your just ignoring us that so much better
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:29 AM
@ShadowShroom im looking for work. I need a job asap but thanks to aspergers ive been looking for over a year. Imagine the state of the gutter id be writhing in if we didnt have welfare here
Curi seems to really nt understand that you cant just get a job at the snap of a finger
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:29 AM
thanos needed to use the infinity gauntlet to create jobs (edited)
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:29 AM
yeah, except a shitty job tends to be less immediately awful than no job in our current system
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:30 AM
Employment gauntlet
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:30 AM
someone photoshop Thanos into business wear and holding a briefcase please
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:30 AM
otherwise no one would work retail... ever.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:30 AM
Lol thats probs already a comic panel
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:31 AM
That's perhaps how it'd work in theory, Curi, but not how it works in practice. There are countless examples of companies maximizing profit, if people aren't able to enter the market and all the people in the market are all maximizing profit, you'll have shitty treatment of workers in general.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:31 AM
The consistent assumption that employment is easy to get for everyone might actually be the last straw for me
Hey curi. Guess what. Not all of us can make money writing lies and bullshit on their hundred websites
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:32 AM
I'm surprised that I still have any straws left
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:32 AM
Some of us actually have integrity curi
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:32 AM
and that I'm still here
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:33 AM
N-no it doesn't. Maximizing profit ends up with cheap products made from cheap labor.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:33 AM
Ｏ Ｏ Ｆ @Zaphod1207
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:33 AM
Some of us actually have good intentions for people other than ourselves and dont want to crush everything that crosses our socio path
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:33 AM
NO SURVIVORS
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:34 AM
Believe it or not, we dont all use american psycho as an instruction manual
We arent you because we have a single drop of humanity left in us (edited)
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:34 AM
Cheap clothing made via cheap labor at as high a price as possible. Do you need an example of this?
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:34 AM
I think he might be a SYNTH
he only sees things in terms of money, profit, and cold hard logic/numbers (edited)
which doesn't always work (edited)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:35 AM
No synths are actually somewhat pitiable
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:35 AM
He`s Corpus
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:35 AM
yeah I actually like Nick Valentine
slavery. that's what.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:35 AM
Profit numbs the feeling (edited)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:35 AM
Hes more like... abed from community but without any of the humanity
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:36 AM
"via cheap labor" and "as high a price as possible" were qualifiers to that thing I said.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:36 AM
@curi these things called sweatshops you disgusting reptile
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:36 AM
the conditions in a lot of the third-world clothing factories are absolutely disgusting and it borders on slavery
they pay their workers less than a dollar a week and there's almost no safety precautions
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:36 AM
If companies are not trying to minimize labor costs why do they outsource?
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:36 AM
this is what big buisness does to make profit, curi.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:36 AM
@curi andrew ryan says tone it down a little
Would you kindly tone it down a little*
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:37 AM
so... the answer is abject slavery
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:37 AM
@curi are you seriously justifying sweatshops you inhuman fucking machine
You are the creation that god abandoned in his despair
Skynet was going to deploy you but you were too lacking in empathy.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:39 AM
OOF
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:39 AM
That's not what happens though, Curi.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:39 AM
Moggy laying down some BANGERS
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:39 AM
Thank you.
I should write these down and make a bard
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:40 AM
I doubt there'd be a lot of contexts you could use these in a d&d campaign
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:40 AM
Honestly if there are just 5 employers they will collude.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:40 AM
Curi is why the rich will always be in need of eating
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:41 AM
they'll hire the people at the lowest wages possible and sell the product at the highest cost possible in order to maximize profit
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:41 AM
They will work out how to get the labor they need out of those 300.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:41 AM
that's all that big businesses care about is the bottom line
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:41 AM
Seriously though at this rate ifni wanted to refute curis arguments i could just post the synopsis of bioshock
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:41 AM
Or you could tell him the story of the Radium Girls
though he'd probably jack off to it now that I think of it
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:42 AM
You act as if you can just "start a business"
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:42 AM
the keyword there is "idealized"
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:42 AM
You know whats funny? Ayn rands own books dont even do a good job of making randianism look good.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:42 AM
i.e. "not real"
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:43 AM
Like, atlas shrugged is a portrayal of rands perfect world. And its fucked.
TheBohemianRed 04-Mar-19 12:43 AM
Certainly my mom n’ pop shop can complete with the local WalMart.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:43 AM
If you base everything on the ideal scenario you literally will fail every time
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:43 AM
curi is a cyberpunk megacorp owner villain traveled back in time
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:43 AM
Curi is lless competent than weyland yutani
And weyland yutani ends up doing evil shit without even having any profit incentive.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:44 AM
>"Basic Econ"
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:44 AM
Basic enron*
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:45 AM
"very simplified" is the problem
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:45 AM
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:45 AM
examples like this only serve to demonstrate the numbers and they usually don't take into account the larger socio-economic factors
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:46 AM
@curi Were not Children
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:46 AM
like, y'know, the workers being real people that need to eat to survive and need money to get food and jobs to get money
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:46 AM
examples like this are shit you use for exams not for modelling the real world you fuucktard
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:46 AM
Do those 300 have income now? Do they have savings? Are they organized and can communicate with each other? (edited)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:46 AM
Im not engaging in this unless the three hubdred workers start fighting Persians
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:46 AM
@curi You treat us like we are doesn't mean we are
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:47 AM
No, I'm not doing the """math""" in the """most basic econ scenario""" because the scenario itself is flawed and not appropriate for fully demonstrating all the factors that are on the table in the discussion
the scenario ignores the human needs of the workers and just treats them as numbers in order to demonstrate a rough, basic, principle
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:47 AM
If you don't take into account reality, workers will end up with exactly as much income per person possible while also paying to keep the business afloat.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:48 AM
to build a basic framework for a student so they can grasp more difficult concepts later on that are more applicable to real life
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 12:48 AM
@curi MIIND SLAMMED SHUT
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:48 AM
Sure. Go ahead.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:49 AM
I refuse to think in a simple framework like that because you're clearly being intellectually dishonest and lure me into a "gotcha" trap
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:49 AM
How rch do youu think curi was born
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:49 AM
by leaving out all the other variables that would be at play in real life, which is what we're talking about right now
not a textbook scenario
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:49 AM
At the very least, I don't think Curi has ever worried about missing a meal, Bike.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:50 AM
My bridge design would work if you putbit in an ideal scenario where no one uses it @Vantablack
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:50 AM
yeah, but that's not how it works in real life
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:50 AM
I think id rather get economic advice from an owl thab i would from curi
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:51 AM
Yes. You need extra info. You just sorta kept the variables you needed without considering what actually happens.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:51 AM
In the situation of a sweatshop, that's the only option people have for employment in the area, so since the company knows everyone's going to come work for them, they can pay them $1 a week and the workers don't have any other choice because it's better than not making any money and starving to death in a fucking DITCH
TheBohemianRed 04-Mar-19 12:51 AM
Irl the ideal scenario rarely happens. And when it does, it’s often the exception rather than the rule.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:52 AM
would you rather be in poverty or just dead, @curi
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:53 AM
Sure, capitalism doesn't, reality does.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:53 AM
When there's one company keeping a population like this down, the workers are usually unskilled and don't have the funding or ability to start new buisnesses
it takes a lot of money to start up your own buisness, dipshit
which you CAN'T DO if you're constantly an inch away from starvation
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:53 AM
@Vantablack btw whats your pfp from
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:53 AM
I drew it myself
It's my character from Destiny 2
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:54 AM
Oh. The art style reminded my of two different vgames ive played lol
Absolver and ashen
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:54 AM
I did it in a vector program so it probably looks more 'stylized'
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 12:55 AM
Thw government gives grants to nake it easier actually...
But i guess you dont really know anything about economics so why would you know that
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 12:55 AM
Or all the companies can pay $0.50/hr available to any given person and keep the profits to themselves. Sweated labor was a symptom of laissez-faire.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:55 AM
You can't just start a business it takes resources, or you have to convince others to give them to you (often with the explicit expectation they will get more back than they gave). Expansion may not require more people. And self-employment requires resources, skills, and a safety net -- or a willingness for a bit of bad luck to fuck you over completely.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:57 AM
god if you abbreviate "people" to "ppl" one more time I am going to claw my eyes out of their sockets
all right here we go
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:57 AM
If they are 500 jobs and 600 people, then everyone works 5/6ths of a job.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 12:57 AM
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 12:58 AM
Right now we have a major underemplyment problem in the US.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:01 AM
To a business, labor is just a necessary evil -- the ideal state of a company is to have no employees (and technically no customers) but still turn a profit. They just generally can't make that work, so they approximate that as best they can.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:02 AM
I'm looking at reality, where, yes, employers have all the power. Sweatshops, which practically pay wages in Monopoly money, have existed at least since the early 1800's and exist even now as we speak.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:02 AM
The emplyees are ultimately a cost, their output can increase profits.
Define capitalism for the purposes of this conversation. (edited)
Note: a free market is not synonmous with it.
none of that is exclusive, or even a requriement for capitalism.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:05 AM
Just some examples: Conspiracy, finding people desperate for labor (not hard), being in a field with a barrier to entry, being in an area with little choice for labor, not being in an area with precedent for good treatment.
Why are you starting it at $20.01? That's the ideal scenario. And if company 2 doesn't have room for more employees, it can't get more employees.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:10 AM
@curi The Basic math doesn't account for how unpredictable human behavior for my own example is the seller might like or dislike the person and give them a worse or better price .
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:11 AM
Why is it starting at $20.01? All 5 businesses will want to maximize profit as much as possible. Accruing the maximum capital is kinda the main focus of capitalism.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:12 AM
@curi You cant that's my point and with no government intervention the company with the most power wins
And now theres only 2 companies
@curi If they were to take out the other companies and become the only one it doesn't matter
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:14 AM
(Also, profit allows for expansion. Let's keep that in mind as well.)
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:14 AM
@curi any way like buying them out offering larger wages or anything else and then after that they do whatever they want
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:15 AM
you're still talking?
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:16 AM
The top 3 pay the same base wage, the top 2 expand until they can pay higher than Biz3, then Biz5 will expand until they can pay higher than Biz4. There's now only one business.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:16 AM
@curi You would have the market share and you bully the other companies
@curi By doing things like going after there workers or lowering there own prices
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:17 AM
Sell your own product at a loss until the competitors go out of business, and then jack up the prices again to recoup the cost and continue profitting
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:18 AM
@LaCroix Boi yeah my point
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:18 AM
Bad conditions exist in more than just salary. If you can't live without a job and the only chocies don't have any standards, there won't be any standards. (edited)
But you can't just not work, because you can't live without a job.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:18 AM
@curi my point is if there is only one company they can abuse there power (edited)
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:20 AM
It's hard to start a new company.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:20 AM
@curi The shitty company would not seem like one till later also companies are hard to make (edited)
@curi Is your idea of a company 2 guys and a dream
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:21 AM
it's as almost as if external realities break the model's assumptions.
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:22 AM
But you won't be able to compete against large industrialized fishing or logging companies
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:22 AM
*Facepalm* Or some people with a shovel go find some oil to sell.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:22 AM
also you prob need a boat, to buy an axe, those trees are on someone's land...
I think the French went with another plan.
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:24 AM
I knew most Libertarians were less reasonable Anarchists (edited)
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:24 AM
Stealing wood from trees on someone else's land, you mean? (edited)
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:24 AM
Also what's to stop someone from stealing someone else's stuff
@curi I know most of your answers though and there pretty bullshit
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:25 AM
Point being, it's hard to start a new business.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:25 AM
The point is"start a business" isn't just something one goes and does. Thus it is to be removed from the model.
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:25 AM
But with your wood-gathering example, that literally can't be done if someone owns the land the trees are on.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:25 AM
(or the difficulty needs to at least be accounted for)
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:27 AM
I`m good
answer other people
Other people have better questions than i do answer them
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:28 AM
the land ownership issue is pertinent to your point of just "start a logging business" (edited)
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:28 AM
Alright, do you need more examples of how it's hard to start a business? (edited)
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:28 AM
You're going to have to come up with better examples then, because land ownership is a necessary part of exploiting the land for its resources.
Jar of Mayo 04-Mar-19 01:29 AM
you can rent the land or buy it
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:29 AM
If you're looking at debate as you teaching and us learning, you're not going to get very far.
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:30 AM
Why would I rent my land out to you so you can exploit its resources, when I can exploit those resources myself?
Jar of Mayo 04-Mar-19 01:30 AM
because they are going to pay you
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:31 AM
But the amount they pay me has to be greater than the amount I could make utilizing the land myself
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:31 AM
the randian dipshit is still here? shouldnt he be off owning the sweat of his own brow?
Jar of Mayo 04-Mar-19 01:32 AM
that's what should happen
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:32 AM
I'm not bored yet, and I like the distraction from the snow outside.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:32 AM
You haven't really said much I haven't heard before. You told me a law which I don't really think holds in practice. And my point is that the way you phrased it seems as if you want things to be one-sided.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:32 AM
i could have gotten all of this garbage from bioshock, and i would have been allowed to shoot people while doing so
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:33 AM
Ugh... Talking down to people is not a good look
Your opinions are facts now? (edited)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:33 AM
yeah, curi, youre not smarter than us. stop pretending you are. my dog learns faster than you do
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:34 AM
but hitler
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:34 AM
That people are arguing in bad faith. Actually that people "don't want to learn" but even then you're approaching this from the wrong place
No, what you said is that people don't want to learn, from which I extrapolated that people were arguing in bad faith
Drop a quotation my guy
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:35 AM
no, arguing in bad faith was what you were doing. i simply turned your logic against you and you got pissy
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:35 AM
Projecting much?
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:36 AM
You told them a vocab word
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:36 AM
for fucks sake name dropping isnt an argument you wanker
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:37 AM
You did. Simply because you assumed they needed that explanation because they referred to the phenomenon with the "wrong" word (edited)
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:38 AM
Marx is also hardly the-end-all-be-all of theory for the "economic left"
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:38 AM
My side? What is my side? (Hint: It's not Marxism)
You can share an idea with somebody without following their entire ideology.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:40 AM
I'll blutly state what I want: I don't want wages. I want to eliminate the conception of transactional economies and utilize decentralized, equitable, and egalitarian processes to make decisions we currently leave to market forces.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:41 AM
I'm honestly unfamiliar with Mises. I don't know why he or his ideas are or aren't credible.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:41 AM
gestures a democracy. That, for everything. At least that's the short version.
as a stop-gap, UBI of some sort, at least while we've not automoated everything.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:42 AM
classical liberals
oof
yes
and I vote you clean toilets for $1 a day
it's not slavery. the community voted on it
that's all you're worth
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:43 AM
First, no one pays or gets paid. The idea of a "job" would not apply in such a system. You do what needs to be done because it needs to be done, and you are able to do it.
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:43 AM
(I think Sass was joking. Joshing, perhaps. Jiving, maybe)
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
I'm very serious
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
Oh. I stand corrected
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
Jivoshing, he's not.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
I want the US to be just like Venezuela
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
snickers.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
assuming gender is a grave offense
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:44 AM
He is indeed jivoshoking. I fiddled that riddle for you.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:45 AM
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:45 AM
"they" works quite well.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:45 AM
I think you misunderstood the definition
which makes sense considering your lack of understanding of basic economics
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:46 AM
Are we arguing about what words to use now? I'm gonna go eat some bread.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:46 AM
lol
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:46 AM
that usage is for an indefinite third party.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:47 AM
I'm derailing on purpose
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:47 AM
curry pan... mmm
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:47 AM
why the fuck is it that an employer can decide how much your life is worth but we cant curi
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:47 AM
oof
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:47 AM
is it because they're wealthier?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:47 AM
because it's important to have corporations control life instead of governments because corporations have incentive to be better to people or something.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:48 AM
"The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty-hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day."
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:48 AM
clearly went with LOTR.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:48 AM
i could have been playing red dead or somethin today
curi. if its a big issue, let the adults handle it. (edited)
also maybe look up why the french revolution happened. hint, its not cause the rich didnt have enough power
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:49 AM
I love it when ancaps and communists break down and eventually admit their talking points are so convoluted that they can't actually argue them
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:50 AM
@curi just because you don't like our ideas doesn't make them less valid
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:50 AM
he gone
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J47ENHSomc8
Dragos1n
Bioshock - Andrew Ryan Introduction (High Quality)
If you enjoyed this game as much as I did. You should take a look at one of the heavy influences that brought this game to life. One of them being Ayn Rands ...
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:50 AM
the boss gave marching orders
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:50 AM
fuck i missed the chance for one last jab
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:50 AM
Cool beans
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
He had you blocked though. You couldn't jab
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
lol
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
we could still enjoy it
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
for my own benefit not for his
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
and pretend he could read it
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
Write your jab anyway
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:51 AM
This was fun now we have there website and YouTube channel to remember them by
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
shit I accidentally deleted his part of the convo
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
Hmm? What'd he say?
Icarus Pheonix 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
Hey, I can finally go do homework instead of watching this place
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
Will he be able to debate Jake on Tuesday tho? I still want to see that
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
lol
nope
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
and nothing of value was lost
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
The question isn't who is going to educate me; it's who is going to stop me from remaining uneducated. - curi
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
back to netflix
have a good day everyone
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:52 AM
i wont
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 01:53 AM
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:53 AM
Why have I stayed awake until 2 am when I have to work in 7 hours? Now there's no reason. (edited)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:53 AM
now i have nothing to do
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 01:53 AM
I have court in 8 hours so I feel ya
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:54 AM
now im gonna have to think about tomorrows uni tutorials instead of how much i hate ayn rand
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 01:54 AM
It's not even a case where I have to be awake enough to do a lot. I honestly don't expect to do much in the morning.
I honestly do find it fucked up how there's a huuuge disparity in pay between me and my co-workers because most of their pay is offset by tips.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 01:56 AM
still has two more days off~
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:56 AM
Alright this is devolving into lobby talk lets all go there now
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 01:56 AM
Wait did our boi get banned
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 01:56 AM
Lets go to Lobby and yes @Vantablack
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 01:56 AM
god dammit mum's in a mood and is about to harass some poor call centre worker over some faux pas made by ebay
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 01:56 AM
Or just ragequit
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 02:00 AM
On a slow day, servers at my job won't get paid shit. I'll just be paid salary, so I'm just as fine. On a busy day, servers will be paid quite well. I'll just be paid salary, so there's honestly no incentive to work very hard. Proposal: Pay people for the work they do on top of a minimum (on top of UBI or similar mechanism).
Jar of Mayo 04-Mar-19 02:01 AM
or get a better job
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:01 AM
id say have a minimum wage that is always a certain percentage above the cost of living
also mayo. thats fucking awful advice. maybe you can start giving it out when you can snap your fingers and magically get new jobs
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:02 AM
I still maintain a UBI is ultimately a better soluiton, but a minimum wage is the bare minimum alterantive.
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 02:02 AM
I feel it'd be much better if the minimum living income didn't come from the business itself, but rather from tax on corporations and/or the rich in general.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:03 AM
we didn't even touch on how we subsidize minimum labor wages now with public programs. We essentually subsizie low-income labor for companies now.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:04 AM
ultimately however "get a better job" is the kind of advice that you deserve to get punched for giving
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:05 AM
It's useless in isolation and contingent on things you rarely have control over.
certainly for "unskilled" positions, or even most "low skill" ones.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:06 AM
I'll think about the importance of getting a job as I apply for another ten jobs that i'll never get so much as a rejection email for (edited)
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:06 AM
been there, for a while, then lucked out on the one I have now.
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:07 AM
oh good they left
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 02:07 AM
Why doesn't your daddy just give you a job in one of his other companies?
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:07 AM
its almost as insulting as being told to get a stem degree when you say you've got a degree in the arts
Jar of Mayo 04-Mar-19 02:08 AM
If you don’t like your current job because its pays little and another job pays a lot more then switch if they are hiring.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:08 AM
as someone with a STEM degree, we vastly undervalue the arts as a society.
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 02:08 AM
Easier said than done
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:08 AM
oh yeah ill just drop this degree, i may only be good at one thing but ill slave away in a field I suck at for the sake of your obsession with the so called practical
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 02:09 AM
@Jar of Mayo You cant be serious right
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:09 AM
The entire concept of education for employment I detest. It can be a nice side bonus, but it isn't the point.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:09 AM
i still think high schools should have stuff like how to do taxes
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 02:10 AM
As someone with an arts degree, we vastly undervalue STEM as a society.
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:10 AM
Anti-intellectualism strikes at both the Arts and the Sciences
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:10 AM
@DistantRed yeah but at least people dont sneer at engineers
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 02:10 AM
As someone who lives in a society, bottom text.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:10 AM
engineers get respect. the cunts.
HoneyDrops 04-Mar-19 02:11 AM
That is worth including, though I really want more abstract thinking. Formal logic and rhetoric, science as a method not a body of knoweldge, the skills to evaulate claims methodically, etc.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:11 AM
arts and humanities are just better and they dont wanna admit it UwU
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
Anti-intellectualism demands we not think critically, not consider facets of concepts or ideas that are "too abstract," which hurts artistic expression and rational empirical thought (science)
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
lets all just point and laugh at philosophy majors
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
rip me
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
I liked studying philosophy
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
Anthropology is fun though
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
philosophy is history for people who specialise in being boring
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:12 AM
the shade
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
Engineers don't get enough respect.
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
@DistantRed they get all the dollar dollar bills though
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
WOW! Bichael, I consider what you just said a hate crime
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
the highest paying field in australia at the moment is engineering
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
engineers have a bad rep from being full of too many creationists
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
Engineering is where the money's at
ShadowShroom 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
Alright off the lobby let's go were devolving into small talk
DistantRed 04-Mar-19 02:13 AM
Not false, Bike. Not false.
LaCroix Boi 04-Mar-19 02:14 AM
Nooooo, engineers aren't full of creationists, creationists are full of engineers
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:16 AM
fair
Jar of Mayo 04-Mar-19 02:19 AM
lol is that true? I've met some that are very religious but that's it.
Terminus 04-Mar-19 02:23 AM
It's more of a meme I guess than anything. It's not a legitimately acknowledged thing, but it's something of a pattern when looking among the credentials that creationists have
Cause, well, if they were biologists... or theoretical physicists...
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 02:28 AM
automechanic john morris pendleton
Vantablack 04-Mar-19 02:50 AM
Midhusband
pica 04-Mar-19 05:01 AM
fun fact: I looked up one of the guys with the title "dr" on Ancient Aliens and the only person I could find with that name and the title was a dentist
naturally it did not mention what kind of dr title he had in the show
Rose 04-Mar-19 06:48 AM
holy shit wow that went on a while
pica 04-Mar-19 06:49 AM
I seem to have missed some fun stuff
Rose 04-Mar-19 06:52 AM
just a Libertarian
pica 04-Mar-19 06:54 AM
that seems to have been wiped off the chat
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 06:59 AM
@pica its ffor the best
pica 04-Mar-19 07:00 AM
I figured as much, and probably better the topic not be brought up for a while anyway
Zaphod1207 04-Mar-19 07:01 AM
To any rand fans out therem youre next.
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:15 AM
isn't it fucked up that we see automation as an inevitably bad thing
because we refuse to change the system radically enough so that we actually benefit from auomation (edited)
pica 04-Mar-19 09:21 AM
it's only viewed as bad, because it replaces manual labor
which some people do see as a positive, when manual labor is seen as inherently negative
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:23 AM
WEll the bigger issue is that it further increases the divide between rich and poor in the current system
it dosen't have to be this way, you could just distribute that more fairly or atleast allow people to have some way to reap the benefits of the automation in more fair way
i don't claim to have the solution, bujt i don't think i need to have a solution to realize the current system isn't gonna work
pica 04-Mar-19 09:24 AM
it increases it how?
because rich people aka industrialists have to pay less wage?
let's say manufacturers, I think that is a better word
Rose 04-Mar-19 09:29 AM
well yeah automation means less essential jobs and a further divide in earnings
pica 04-Mar-19 09:29 AM
I was just asking, cos I did not want to assume and hear your reasons
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:30 AM
Didn’t John Oliver just do an episode on this? (edited)
pica 04-Mar-19 09:30 AM
automation means lower production costs, due to lower wage cost. theoretically that could mean the products become cheaper and affordable to more people, some people may even be able to save money
it's a market full of competition, unless they are monopolies/cartels price competition is still going to be a thing
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:31 AM
It also means new different jobs
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:32 AM
Competition is not beneficial to the people. Not all the time.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:32 AM
when it comes to the prices of products it usually is
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:32 AM
And it's pretty obvious why in the current system it will just further divide between the rich and the poor: the rich will replace the poor with automation because they don't have to pay the bots and can work them longer.
the poor are SOL cause it's not like they can pull money out of their ass to start a business or some shit
pica 04-Mar-19 09:33 AM
that only explains how "the rich" get richer
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:33 AM
yeah, and that furthers the wealth divide.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:33 AM
SOL?
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:33 AM
shit out of luck. And yeah, richer people getting richer while poor and even middle class people lose jobs does obviously further the wealth divide between rich and the poor
pica 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
I don't think it is that obvious, but it is one possibility
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
It is that obvious. How is it not obvious
pica 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
because there are more factors that contribute
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
Less jobs mean less people make money which means more poverty.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
Automation doesn’t exactly equal less jobs
pica 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
less jobs in some specific fields
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:34 AM
^
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:35 AM
Yeah, that's still less jobs.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:35 AM
Not necessarily
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:35 AM
i mean in the current system
pica 04-Mar-19 09:36 AM
society needs to adapt, which is possible in the current system.
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:36 AM
Under capitalism?
pica 04-Mar-19 09:36 AM
of course, society can always adapt (edited)
create new industries, which is happening
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:36 AM
I'm highly skeptical societ will adapty in a way that isn't gonna further wealth inequality.
i mean fuck do we need capitalism? why do we assume we benefit from capitalism
pica 04-Mar-19 09:36 AM
cos we do?
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:37 AM
Eh
we beneift from the work people do. A work where someone else who didn't do most of the work reaps an insane amount of the reward.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:37 AM
we do have both benefits and disadvantages from it
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:38 AM
ugh, i'm not satisfied
it just seems we automatically assume capitalism is the only way and best system we can ahve
pica 04-Mar-19 09:38 AM
well, with lack of alternatives…
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:38 AM
god i dunno.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:38 AM
Capitalism works best under heavy regulation and with specific socialist policies underlying it
pica 04-Mar-19 09:39 AM
no one with a bit of sense wants laissez faire
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:39 AM
i'm a social democrat but at some points i feel like we're just trying to cage the monster and try to benefit from it as opposed to just killing it.
I don't know enough to say i suppose.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:39 AM
Once we find an alternative I’ll listen
But I don’t think we’re there yet
pica 04-Mar-19 09:40 AM
I mean, capitalism as it stands mostly refers to private citizens owning businesses with the goal to make a profit
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:40 AM
I'm not a fan of that.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:40 AM
That’s true
pica 04-Mar-19 09:40 AM
as opposed to the state owning things or the workers owning the businesses
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:40 AM
it seems like a necessary evil and not an ideal goal to have
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:40 AM
You’re not a fan of people making money?
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:41 AM
I mean i'm a fan in the current system cause making money means you can get good and services, sometimes necessary ones.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:41 AM
I always wondered how workers owning the means of production works with businesses that have 10 employees…
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:41 AM
but alot of those services and goods shouldn't be a commodity imo
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:41 AM
My views on this have changed since I’ve started the process of building my own company
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:41 AM
like basic housing shouldn't be a commodity.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:41 AM
Sure. But that’s not a fault of capitalism per se
It’s a fault of the current structure on capitalism
pica 04-Mar-19 09:42 AM
yeah, I mean not everything can be run as a business effectively
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:42 AM
i dunno
i'm not sure. Like i said i lean towards social democracy as a good compromise with captiaqlism but like, sometimes i dunno
pica 04-Mar-19 09:42 AM
school, prison, health care… they are not things that work very well as business only
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:42 AM
^
Infrastructure
pica 04-Mar-19 09:42 AM
I think we need a cleared idea of what should and should not be a business
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:43 AM
i'm not sure why i refuse to take the extra step towards abolishing this shitty system
pica 04-Mar-19 09:43 AM
yes, infrastructure, too
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:43 AM
i guess it's because i dunno if the alternative would work as well or better.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:43 AM
I think capitalism is not the answer to all the problems we have
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:43 AM
A system can be flawed in implementation while not being as flawed in theory
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:44 AM
capitalism seems flawed both in theory and most implementations
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:44 AM
I don’t know of any country that bases their economic system solely on capitalism
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:44 AM
like why do the people who put the actual work get such an unequal share of the reward from it.
and why are we ok with that
pica 04-Mar-19 09:44 AM
Germany has a social economy, definitely highly regulated capitalism
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:45 AM
Well because they put an unequal amount of work that directly leads to the company succeeding @Elyorn
Not every job should get the same amount of pay
pica 04-Mar-19 09:45 AM
^^
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:45 AM
And yet when the company fails they get laid off as opposed to the people who made the bad decision getting the rough end of the stick
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:46 AM
That’s a flaw of loose regulations.
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:46 AM
how would you regulate that
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:46 AM
That can be fixed without tearing down an entire system
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:46 AM
But why do we need this system
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:46 AM
Because no one has presented a better alternative
pica 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
we don't "need" this system, we have this system
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
i'll stop talking now cause i'm not sure what i'm even saying.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
Good point, pics
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
pica that's a bad argument though, its' not like we're tethered to this system and can't choose something else.
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
Pica*
pica 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
that's not what I mean
the_hand 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
Is there anything wrong with my assigned numbers job application method?
pica 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
yes, the argument "we have it and therefore we should not change it" is equally stupid
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:47 AM
Not to actually you, but completely upending an economic system could do major harm
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:48 AM
if we could show an alternative system that'd work better
maybe you need to go through a period of harm
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:48 AM
You would then need to slowly transition into that system
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:48 AM
Sure
pica 04-Mar-19 09:48 AM
I am skeptical, because some of the alternatives require a change at a very fundamental level
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:48 AM
But social democrats aren't trying to slowly transition into socialism
they're trying to transition to a system where capitalism is kept in check by stricter regulations and where tax revenue is spent on things that actually benefit people
like social safety nets. So far this seems what has worked best
but i dunno if that's a permanent solution. Like i actually don't know
pica 04-Mar-19 09:49 AM
it is a step into a good direction
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:49 AM
yeah i mean i support it.
i vote for candidates with those ideas as much as possible.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:50 AM
we just need to make sure it stays permanent
I mean, this deviates a bit from the topic, but I think there is a bit of a time constraint problem in governing
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:51 AM
Oh sure.
But that’s sort of there on purpose
pica 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
long term solutions and plans are risky for parties/politicians to implement, because the effects of those things tend to not become visible in time for the next election
the_hand 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
How long has Merkel been in charge
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
To not allow extreme changes in a short amount of time
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
yeah the idea behind it is that you keep it slow and deliberate so you don't make hasty decisions
the_hand 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
@pica
pica 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
too long (edited)
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
can i meme for a sec
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
Shoot
pica 04-Mar-19 09:52 AM
Merkel is going on 15 years now @the_hand
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:53 AM
i'm not convinced Merkel isn't just Erdogan in drag.
wake up sheeple.
pica 04-Mar-19 09:53 AM
she's still one year short of Kohl, her mentor , who had 16 years going for him
the_hand 04-Mar-19 09:54 AM
That's what time constrai st can be useful.for @pica
pica 04-Mar-19 09:54 AM
oh I did not mean term limits
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:54 AM
This joke goes over my head
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:54 AM
i dunno
pica 04-Mar-19 09:54 AM
I meant, the 4 years on average that a gov't has
you have about 2 years for positive effects to be visible in your policies to use that as an argument to get re-elected
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 09:56 AM
Does Germany at least have more than 2 viable parties?
pica 04-Mar-19 09:57 AM
eeeeh
the_hand 04-Mar-19 09:57 AM
I mean it sounds.like.they been the same for 30 years
pica 04-Mar-19 09:57 AM
yes, actually we do
but we've also had only coalition gov'ts for the last… 40 years (edited)
traditionally the libertarians go together with the conservatives (Merkel) and the socials go with the green or libertarians — I am not actually sure they are libertarians, they say liberals but they're more or less center. no one wants to go with the socialists though. and the new right wingers…
Rose 04-Mar-19 09:58 AM
@Elyorn just because it isn't a permanent solution doesn't mean it's not worth it
pica 04-Mar-19 09:59 AM
the existence of more parties just means that a single party will almost never reach 50%
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:59 AM
i'm not saying it's not worth it
Rose 04-Mar-19 09:59 AM
I am certain capitalism will come to a point where it just doesn't make sense to keep around anymore but this might not be it
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 09:59 AM
that is what i support right now. I just don't know if that's the best we can do
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 10:00 AM
as an aside i doubt i can thrive in a job market.
pica 04-Mar-19 10:00 AM
I am afraid the best reason to change away from capitalism might be due to some man-made or natural catastrophe
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 10:00 AM
Disability and social anxiety are a bitch
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:00 AM
That’s the major flaw I see in American politics is that 1 party can rule all branches of government and pass any policy they want
Fairly easily at that
pica 04-Mar-19 10:02 AM
yeah, atm we have a coalition of the two biggest parties, center/cons and social, which is a bit strange, but I guess they sort of allow each other to do things. like "you vote for us on this, we vote for you on that"
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:02 AM
That’s fairly interesting
Do you think more moderate policies are being passed due to this?
pica 04-Mar-19 10:04 AM
actually it seems to be the opposite this time, there have been some things pushed by the socials that appear progressive, BUT I have not paid much attention. I know they started naming their shit ridiculously
Elyorn 04-Mar-19 10:04 AM
sorry for being annoying
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:04 AM
Ah okay. Lol
You’re fine @Elyorn
pica 04-Mar-19 10:05 AM
one thing was "the good KiTa law" (KiTa being children's day care)
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:06 AM
Does it make more sense in German?
pica 04-Mar-19 10:06 AM
nope
they choose to use names for the laws that are better marketable
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:07 AM
Ah
pica 04-Mar-19 10:07 AM
but sound stupid, I had no idea they did that, and I know there were others, one tv show made fun of it. a thing similar to a daily show
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:08 AM
Here citizens don’t get to vote on national laws so I don’t think they try hard to hide the intent
pica 04-Mar-19 10:09 AM
yeah, we don't either, I am not 100% sure why do it. maybe they hope by using positive names people will like it more?
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:09 AM
Yeah
Less likely to get constituents to call in and complain
pica 04-Mar-19 10:10 AM
oh the other was "strong families law"
people make jokes about it all the time now
"just cos you call it good, does not mean it is good"
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:12 AM
Yes but don’t you want families to be strong by changing our trade negotiations on farmed tuna?
pica 04-Mar-19 10:13 AM
lol
I find those names weird too. apparently they are just the "marketing names" while the actual text of the law has a different title.
people have criticized that if you say something against those, it is implied you don't want good KiTas and strong families (edited)
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:14 AM
I’ll just chop it up to something like the Affordable Care Act being colloquially known as Obamacare
pica 04-Mar-19 10:14 AM
yeah
affordable is at least more precise than good or strong
Prof. Sass 04-Mar-19 10:15 AM
Sometimes I get frustrated that over 25% of my salary goes to childcare