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First Date Opener

Edit: (sept 2015) due to complaints and confusion, I want clarify some things:

I think dating is bad.

I have low opinions of alcohol, dancing, clubs, partying, lots of sexual promiscuity for "fun".

I think the way society treats women (and men too) is bad. I think both gender roles have lots of huge flaws.

I think PUA is the messenger – it's not to blame for how this stuff works, but gets blamed a lot for telling the truth about social dynamics, contrary to society's pretty lies. I appreciate PUA's knowledge of how society works and truth-telling on the matter. I appreciate standing up to pretty lies.

I do have PUA-type views on some issues. For example, I think the campus rape epidemic is bullshit and the affirmative consent standard is bullshit. I have many large disagreements with feminists and social justice warriors. And I do not think men in particular are to blame for gender roles, dating conventions, etc, I think so much of this stuff is mutual.

Statements like, below, "her value is more in her face, her body" are talking about how society works, what the social rules are. They are not an endorsement of those rules. I am not recommending that you value women in that way.

I consider it hard to find women who are of much value in good ways. But I also think the same thing about men. I think the female gender role is a bit worse overall, but both are terrible. Some key problems with the female gender role are it's more passive and less compatible with being intellectual. I do not think you should take the attitude, "women suck, so I'll just put up with some dumb bitch to get sex". I don't think you should give up on a better life. I also don't think you should find some slightly less dumb bitch and lie to yourself that she's smart.

These problems are caused by underlying factors such as static memes and coercive parenting. These things are cultural defaults that are very hard to get away from. These topics get into deep, complex ideas. People could be much better than they are. These are soluble problems.

I advise people to become serious philosophers and reject many of society's customs.

The purpose of this post is to explore ideas, and think about PUA, dating and social dynamics. If you think it's not pretty, consider becoming unconventional – but only in a serious way involving deep study of philosophy.

Note: flakey, unthoughtful deviations from convention generally don't work very well. And whatever you currently think is seriously intellectual, is, I'd guess, not nearly good enough.

Sorry there's no simple way to even know where the line is for what's good enough to be rational reform instead of reckless destruction. You have to learn tons of philosophy to even have a quality view on that issue.

The original post is below, unedited:

what to say at the start of a first date:

(speak slowly)

hi. look i know people get really nervous on first dates. i don't like for people to suffer and it's really unnecessary. so i hope you can relax and we can talk honestly. but i know that's a cliche, and just saying that doesn't work. so i'm going to do most of the talking until you get more comfortable. i'll go first and share who i am, so it's easier for you. i won't ask too many questions, i don't want to put you on the spot. speak up more when you want to. and don't worry about saying "yeah" or "me too" every 5 seconds to keep my confidence up, i'll be fine. and please don't worry about silences either – sometimes i need to stop to think, it's no big deal.

another problem is people form all these expectations about the other person, and about what you do on dates. people have this fantasy of what they want from the other person before they even know them. for now, we're just talking. no big deal. no pressure or obligations.

now what i want you to do to get started is listen. thanks. and if you don't like something, i want you to tell me. point it out. because if you tell me, i can deal with it. but if i don't know there's a problem, then i might not be able to. can you do that for me? is that fair?

(if she's receptive, this is a good point to touch her for emphasis. you can tell her to look at and touch her to turn her towards you more, in order to get stronger attention when you ask the questions. and it communicate seriousness, it adds gravity.)

[she says ok]

Great. Now to start with, I'm a philosopher. That's the most important thing to me. You don't know what I mean. There's different ideas about philosophy floating around, and I strongly disagree with most of them. I'm a specific type of philosopher. To me, philosophy is about...

If you're not a philosopher, you'll have to replace that part with whatever you really care about, that really matters to you, that you will be able to talk about a bunch, confidently, without needing constant reassurance from her.

If you don't have anything like that, get something. You need to have your own life, have a "you" that really solidly exists and means something. That's so much more important than girls.

BTW, you should consider becoming a philosopher. Ideas are the most important thing in the world. A philosopher is a person who deals with ideas. It was philosophy knowledge that let me write this post. It's through philosophy that I learned people don't have to suffer, and that all the cliche talk about open, honest communication doesn't actually solve the problem.

there's a bunch of reasons for opening this way. it's partly like explained: to try to help her past her nervousness and make it easier for her. it's partly because the man leads. it's partly because it's better to talk about your own passion than hers. it's what you're about, your major values, that should be the focal point. if she's not compatible with you, it doesn't matter what her interests were anyway. and it's your value, the good stuff about you that you care about, which will draw her to you. she wants to know what you're about, and you want to know if she likes what you're about, so start there. her value is more in her face, her body, her compliance with your stuff, not her interests. girls are more malleable – it's your job to draw her into your world and, if it's nice, she can be a kind of person that's helpful to you.

if she's one of the few girls who doesn't follow traditional gender roles – and i mean really, thoroughly doesn't follow them (which is under 1% of the girls who claim they want equality) – then no harm will be done. she'll understand why you approached it this way and she'll take some initiative to say, e.g., that she isn't nervous, that she has a lot to say too, that she wants to share her passion with you, etc. if she doesn't have the confidence and initiative to say that and change the style of discussion, then she is a normal, passive girl after all, so the original style is best.

this isn't the only way you can approach a new girl. lots of ways are ok. but this is good. there are a lot of common problems with dates. ignoring them won't make them go away. you'll have to be very skillful and charming to deal with all the problems really well in a subtle way. if you're more of the nerdy, intellectual type who would actually read my blog, then addressing the bad things about dating directly and honestly is a good way to do it.

but keep in mind you can't just copy my words. if you start with my words, then switch to your own words afterwards, she'll notice. you'll sound like one person, and then a different person. it'll be confusing. you have to say things you're comfortable with, which are natural to you. PUAs call this congruence.

i think it's good to be the kind of person who naturally would say things like my example. if you're not, maybe you can see some of the appeal and learn something. and maybe you can even be inspired to want to learn more about philosophy.

PS if your date is not officially a "date", or you aren't sure if it is, you can say pretty much the same thing with a few adjustments not to mention dating. if it kinda might be a date, people still get nervous and get expectations, so the issues still come up.

don't try to push the "date" label on her if it's unclear – you're only doing that to create social approval to pursue her, because you lack confidence (if it's a "date" that allows you to touch her, try to sleep with her, etc – that's a bad mindset).

PPS if you're interested in PUA, try to point out some of the techniques used in the comments! you'll learn more.

Edit: (sept 2015) Disclaimer: this is a post about PUA. If you want to do or understand PUA, you can learn something. This is not advice. My recommendation for your lifestyle is: learn philosophy instead of getting involved in stereotyped relationships.

Also, this is a thought experiment, not a recommendation to say these lines (which would not be congruent for you, and also in real life you need to make lots of adjustments on the fly depending what she says).

Elliot Temple on June 26, 2015

Comments (2)

PUA in business

I found out that I do something that seems like a PUA tactic. I want to know what you think.

Basically I use touching - like my hand on someone's shoulder (or just a tap on the arm) - I'm not clear on why. Like if I said something to someone, like say the context is a business meeting, and let's say he responds with a bit of surprise at something I said and let's I say that I think that he misunderstood me (like he thinks I'm upset at him), my next statement might be layered with my hand on their shoulder while I say "no I'm just trying to find out what went wrong and how to fix it. This isn't me being upset. Criticism is good."

I found out that I do this touching thing when someone pointed it out to me. He didn't like it. He said he hated me touching him. I thought maybe it's just him.

I tried to stop doing it but I messed up a bunch of times with him.

Ever since then I've been trying to notice myself doing it. I noticed that I do it with my employees. I asked them about what I do and they said that they found it annoying too (hate it).

I wonder how I learned it. Maybe it was in college when I took a communications class and the teacher focussed on explaining some communication via body language. Like when you shake someone's hand and you use your second hand to touch their elbow area - that communicates that you really like the girl. (Although what guy-girl situation involves them shaking hands as if it's a business meeting?? Gotta think about that more.)

Actually I kinda remember some now. I remember learning lots of sales techniques from a business partner. There was a lot of emphasis on getting potential customers to like you. Some of the techniques were weird as fuck. Like one of them was about copying the customers body language. Like if he crossed his arms, you do the same thing - somehow this registered subconsciously with that customer, that the two of us are alike. So maybe I learned this touching technique from this business partner and I just don't remember learning it.

My current theory about my touching thing is that it's a control technique. It's about controlling the conversation. Like if I notice that the convo is not going as expected, I use touching/tapping to nudge the convo in the direction I want. I imagine this same goal can also be achieved with words but body language adds a layer of info that can't be achieved with words alone (at least not in some contexts).

Anonymous at 5:38 AM on June 28, 2015 | #2515
Why do you think NLP mirroring is "weird as fuck"? http://www.nlp-secrets.com/nlp-technique-mirroring.php

If you touched lots of people and lots of them hated it, but no one said anything, that tells you something about how much open, honest communication was taking place. Then, given that, you should have some suspicion about what they are communicating to you now about hating being touched.

Elliot at 10:42 PM on July 7, 2015 | #2516

What do you think?

(This is a free speech zone!)