FI Learning

For learning with practice. Posts are not private and could end up on Bing.

Don't Delete Stuff

You should expect anything you post here to be permanently, publicly available on the internet.

If Basecamp had a setting where I could disable people's ability to delete stuff (or to make significant changes in edits), I would use it.

Comments & Events

Firebench
What is your rationale for this? Perhaps it can be criticized?
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
It’s a public group. If you want a private forum, make one or pay me. 
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
It’s also said there is no privacy here from day one as the group description. 
Firebench
I'm more interested in why you've decided this, rather than a restatement of what you've decided.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
I want to share my work and let others read things. I don’t want private discussions in general, nor to engage with things I can’t blog about. I don’t want to limit my audience to a handful of people that excludes even my future friends and fans. 
doubtingthomas
(I guess) All logs are useful and required in trying to understand what makes it hard to help people become more rational.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
It's disruptive to people's thought and learning processes if they read text and expect to be able to engage with it more later, but then it disappears. It's like if you read BoI once and then later (with no warning or foreseeability) the book was unpublished and all existing copies deleted, and you could only go by memory.

And when people delete stuff, they usually don't want you to write down your best recollection of what it said. They're implicitly asking you to help them erase the contents of it from the public record. They usually don't say they're asking that or thank you for the help, but will get upset if you take actions they dislike.
Firebench
The stuff that people want deleted, in general, is not carefully written, carefully edited, published work like BoI. It's things like email addresses or writing that contains potentially personally-identifiable information.

By preventing people from deleting anything ever, I think you are unnecessarily limiting the number of people who would be willing to become involved with you. People like their privacy and for good reason, in our culture. There's a lot of irrationality out there. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could lose their job by being associated with your website.

People are fallible which means that even anonymous accounts aren't sufficient protection. I think you should have policies for when deletions are permitted, and be more tolerant of people's desire for privacy.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
It's not unnecessary to me. Private or ephemeral discussions have major downsides. In general, I don't want them. I'd rather prioritize my time elsewhere.

Also, privacy about personal information and private discussion are separate matters. And deletion is a third matter. Not 100% separate but mostly.

Deletion (particularly unilaterally) is also impractical in various ways, e.g. people may have a page open at the time you delete it and be able to save a copy that way, or they may receive email notifications containing the whole text you deleted. And people can and do make backups of digital data, e.g. I just yesterday posted a backup/export of this group's posts for public download. Fighting with the nature of the internet doesn't work well and generally requires implicit demands for the cooperation of others (often done with no thanks, appreciation, or acknowledgment of how intrusive that is to try to control the actions of others), as you've made of me today re the thread you deleted here.
Firebench
I deleted it because I realized it could reveal my identity (which I don't want to happen). I captured and have mailed you the text of the replies in that thread by other authors.

I can assure you that I do not intend to delete anything else. I will be more careful about what I write in future. I'm sorry for the disruption it's caused you. Thank you for responding to my questions in this thread.

Feel free to kick me off, if you are worried that I will do the same thing again.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
I can assure you that I do not intend to delete anything else.

But you deleted text from the post that I'm quoting this sentence from.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
Tangentially, just saw this about someone who leaked stuff on Twitter that would definitely get mirrored, then deleted it:

https://twitter.com/ArsonAtDennys/status/1362153191102677001

Here are the emails by @slatestarcodex that show he is a racist eugenics supporter. Emails leaked by @TopherTBrennan who deleted their tweets just now. Reposting here.
Firebench
But you deleted text from the post that I'm quoting this sentence from.

Good point.
Firebench
I don't think "Posts are not private" in the group description sufficiently explains what you mean. YouTube videos are not private, but it's not permitted to copy YouTube videos and make them downloadable from your own site.

Do you mean that you own the copyright to our posts? Do you mean that our posts are public domain? Creative Commons with attribution? I think this needs more clarity.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
The owners of YouTube can certainly make the videos available by other means/formats, as they did when e.g. they introduced the YouTube iOS or AppleTV app. I'm not claiming copyright. I may backup, archive or mirror the public forum posts in other formats as part of the process of publishing/sharing the forum. That's the same sort of thing as exporting the posts and then importing them into different forum software and putting that up somewhere (aka moving the forum), which I also could do without needing copyright. A mirror, archive dl link or alternative access point is just an additional feature of the forum. I assume no one would be surprised at all, or complain about copyright, if I provided a .zip download with all curi.us comments, nor did anyone ever complain when all comments were loadable on one html page previously (I removed that indefinitely only because it's too slow). And you shouldn't be very surprised if other people archive stuff and possibly put it up, with or without the forum owner's permission, as certainly does happen with YouTube (the main issue there is it's way too much data for most people to mirror all of it). BTW I imagine you also know that I've been doing this kind of thing for years, e.g. I imported some old blog posts, including comments, including from a different domain (blogspot), into the newer blog software at curi.us, and I have some archives of Yahoo and Google group forums available to download and I have a mirror of tcs.ac up and Justin has mirrors of settingtheworldtorights.com and takingchildrenseriously.com articles up.
Firebench
I guess I was seeing Basecamp as a separate platform, while you're seeing it as just another flavor of forum under the curi.us umbrella of control.
ingracke
I don't think "Posts are not private" in the group description sufficiently explains what you mean. YouTube videos are not private, but it's not permitted to copy YouTube videos and make them downloadable from your own site.

It is permitted to take parts of youtube videos, and then put them in your own youtube videos and comment on them. It can even be fair use to take an entire youtube video and put that inside of your own video and comment on that. And then later, if the original poster takes his video down, that doesn't affect your videos. He has no way to make *you* delete your videos that have parts of his videos inside of them. 

But when you deleted your topic, you actually deleted my writing. And now, I don't think you want me to repost my writing along with your quotes & references to you. My writing was actually meant to respond to your entire post, so it would make sense (from my perspective) to repost the entire thing. 

If your post had instead been a short youtube video, and I had put it within my own youtube video, then I would get to keep that up after you took yours down. But I don't think that's actually what you want - you don't actually want something with those kinds of terms. You want the ability to remove all of your writing, even from other people's content. 

I don't want to post things about you that you don't want posted. So I won't repost my full response to you including the context. Instead I could re-write my point in a different way, that doesn't rely on your context, and then post that somewhere else. (I think the content of what I said is good, and I did want to share it with other people.) But that is work for me. I can be more careful in the future to only reply to you in ways that don't rely on your context, but that is difficult. 

This response I am writing right now relies on your context, and wouldn't make sense if I reposted it without the context. So, from my perspective, I am doing work (and I am actually writing this to try to be helpful to you, to try to explain a different perspective to you), and you might end up demanding in the future that I no longer have the ability to use my own work that I already did. So that's a risk for me. 
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
I think TikTok duets create a mirror of the original video.

There are multiple websites for viewing deleted Reddit comments.
Firebench
ingracke I'm sorry that I deleted your words. That was an unfortunate side effect. I did save a copy if you need them. 

You are right that I would prefer that you don't post my words from the post I deleted. Thank you for offering to do work to meet that preference. I appreciate it.

I now understand Elliot's (and I presume your) rationale for not deleting things—or even making edits. It makes sense and I have no intention to do such a thing again. Please feel free to quote anything I write from this point on.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
btw Firebench you made a different type of tree (CRT – also good in its own ways) than the type i was suggesting. have you watched the gigahurt videos?
Firebench
No, I haven't watched the gigahurt videos. But I know how to make trees of conversations, articles etc.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
I think you’d benefit from those videos and that they could help with your discussion problems. Worth a try?
Firebench
I have strong abilities in that area already. That's not to say I couldn't learn anything from your videos. But I don't think it's the right priority for me.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
Just try it? Or give a demonstration of those strong abilities for criticism?
Firebench
I'll definitely do that at some point. I'm in the middle of learning a new computer language, which is where I want to focus my attention at the moment.