I made another tree before this one, but I forgot to mention about getting the materials to even start the project. This was easy for me to mess up because there was a lot of steps.
I think it's important to mention about getting the cleaning equipment cuz if I had someone else do my project they wouldn't even know how to start. I think I didn't mention getting the equipment cuz I assumed that I already had the stuff in my hands.
Change Filters for fryers in mcdonalds Version 2: •Get cleaning attire •Get cleaning tools •Place tools on a nearby shelf •Make sure I can filter an individual vat •Drain vat •Use cleaning tools to clean vat •Configure vat to wash itself while cleaning •Fill vat back up with oil •Repeat cleaning process for every vat and second fryer •Place a broken down cardboard box on floor next to sink •Roll up a paper towel to clog oil pipe •Take out fryer pan from oil pipe •Clog pipe •Bring pan to the back on the cardboard box •Dismantle pan into parts •Wash each part with water •Trash filter pad inside pan •Replace filter pad while reassembling fryer pan •Return pan to fryer •Unclog oil pipe •Connect pan to oil pipe •Repeat filter pad replacement for second fryer
My thoughts: I think this project steps is messy and long. It has 22 steps and Im treating each step as being equal in level of detail.
I can shorten the first two steps with: get cleaning equipment. I think I can shorten this tree more if I put more thought into it. That way it's less overwhelming
Notified 31 people
Elliot
to shorten it, make it a tree instead of a list. to do that, come up with groupings for steps. e.g. "deal with pipe" (you could probably come up with a better description) is a step you could put in a tree that would have multiple sub-steps. you might be able to represent the whole project in 4 steps like that.
It's a big tree. I think it's a good idea to work on smaller projects to get used to grouping steps.
Notified 32 people
Elliot
great, looks like you got the idea. i see that every node has 2-4 children (or 0). that's a reasonable amount of branching that is generally more organized than one long list. make sense to you? do you see the difference? think you learned something?
Notified 32 people
Dface
make sense to you?
I think im getting it. Should I keep practicing with small projects?
do you see the difference?
Yes, Im starting to see it. It's kind of like words and letters. I can group a word in my mind easier than a number of letters.
think you learned something?
I think I learned that it's easier to make projects into trees than lists
Notified 32 people
Elliot
I think I learned that it's easier to make projects into trees than lists
sorta. a list can sometimes be easier to make but harder to use. sometimes i brainstorm a list first, then organize it as a later step. sometimes you can make a tree right away but sometimes you don't yet know how to organize things so brainstorming without organizing is one way to proceed.
Notified 32 people
Dface
sometimes i brainstorm a list first, then organize it as a later step.
Yeah, I think I did that with my tree. I made the list by brainstorming then I made a tree based on the list.
The tree was easy to make cuz I grouped the stuff from my list
Notified 32 people
Dface
think you learned something?
It's a little difficult to express what I learned cuz I think there's things I overlook. I think i overlook things i already know.
I tried to say I learned something small but i still made an error. Discussion is hard.
I want to say that I learned that lists are good for brainstorming. Trees are good for organizing lists.
Notified 32 people
Dface
Thriving on the first day of Oxygen Not Included
List: •Mine lots of materials •Make sure there is oxygen for your duplicants •Build beds for duplicants •Make a restroom for your duplicants. •Let them sleep in the dark
Tree: •Maintain good oxygen levels
•Get materials for generating power
•Get materials for oxygen diffuser for oxygen •Make power for oxygen diffuser •Build stations for duplicant needs •Make duplicants mine for materials. •Make one duplicant dig outwards to explore •Make another duplicant mine copper •Make another duplicant mine sandstone •Build a restroom •Build a sleeping room with no light
•Take care of duplicant needs for the end of the day •Forage for food
•Let duplicants sleep
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Dface
Waking up to get ready for work without running water:
A break, burst of activity, and then break is a sign of a problem.
Related: how is reading books going?
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Dface
A break, burst of activity, and then break is a sign of a problem.
It is :( I posted the other day cuz I think im not getting anywhere in my life. I was so sad i just got on here and started posting.
Related: how is reading books going?
I take really long breaks too for reading. I want to read to get better, but I just keep taking long breaks.
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Dface
I think I dont post enough cuz I dont fully understand what im getting myself into. Like it can be confusing trying something new. I dont know how to check myself if im right or not and what I learned in the long term.
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Dface
I think I dont post enough cuz I dont fully understand what im getting myself into.
There's new stuff to learn always, but I dont get the game that im playing.
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Dface
I can do something small and that feels satisfying, but I don't connect in my mind what's the next thing I should do.
I think that's what school is good for cuz they know exactly what you need to learn and they put it all in a syllabus.
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Dface
they put it all in a syllabus.
It frustrated me though that in school there is like no interaction with the professors and the student by default. They assumed I got what they taught me, but there is always a percentage of something that I missed about the lesson.
That made me think that Im not really building towards anything knowledge wise. Im mostly learning how to appease people.
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Dface
I like it in FI cuz food for thought stuff is not going to cut it. When it comes to learning something there is right and wrong ways to do it.
It's just hard being independent and working on something big.
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Dface
It's just hard being independent and working on something big.
I think my parents failed at teaching me this. They think Im just going to get this stuff along the way.
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Dface
My parents maintain their own online business and take on a bunch of stuff everyday. I think I turned out worse than them.
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Dface
It's just hard being independent and working on something big.
School helped with this but its one size fits all approach failed me.
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Dface
I remember in sixth grade I was assigned a science project with a partner. That shit was hard.
I didnt even know how to start it. I didnt even know what to ask help for. In the end I turned it in late and did it completely wrong. Lots of people hated me after it and never wanted to work with me again.
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ingracke
I think that's what school is good for cuz they know exactly what you need to learn and they put it all in a syllabus.
They don't really know exactly what you need though. They do put a bunch of stuff on a syllabus, and often succeed at giving an overview of a topic. But they don't actually know how to build up a conceptual understanding of something. When a student manages to get a good conceptual understanding, they usually had to do a lot of the work themselves. (Including things like getting tutors, or finding other sources like books and videos to learn from.)
A lot of people don't notice this at all though because their standards are low. If they learned enough to pass the tests, they think they learned the subject. They don't expect to have a conceptual understanding of things, and don't really notice that they don't. (They do notice that they have a stronger understanding of some things than others, but they don't see it as a problem or as a sign that they don't really understand some of those topics.)
They assumed I got what they taught me, but there is always a percentage of something that I missed about the lesson.
~Everybody misses some things. And sometimes the things you think you missed weren't even covered. It's actually common in textbooks and lectures for the material to not even cover or include all the parts that you need to understand & do all the problems. (I have seen this a lot in math & science textbooks: the problems section includes problems that would be impossible if you could only use the information given in the textbook. So the textbook is NOT teaching enough to actually do the problems. And university lectures are the same.)
School helped with this but its one size fits all approach failed me.
It's possible that the reason it failed you is that you had higher expectations of your own knowledge and didn't like "learning" things you didn't really understand. This is a somewhat common issue. It happens to a lot of students, and they usually just blame themselves. They don't realize that most of the other students *also* didn't really understand the material.
My parents maintain their own online business and take on a bunch of stuff everyday. I think I turned out worse than them.
It is really common for adults to have a "fake it until they make it" attitude. "Imposter syndrome" is also really common. A lot of successful people feel like they don't really know what they are doing. I think you are probably being too hard on yourself, and you aren't really worse than other people in the ways that you think you are.
There is a real issue with the world though, and with "Imposter syndrome". One reason that many people feel like imposters is because some part of them *knows* that they don't really have a good, solid conceptual understanding of the things that they work with every day. But, even without that understanding, people still manage to do OK. E.g., science still functions and makes progress, even though many (most?) scientists have a bad understanding of science.
It is possible to go through regular school and pass all your classes without having a strong conceptual understanding of the ideas, and go on to have a successful life and do work that contributes to society.
FI is trying to aim for something more than that though. It is trying to help people learn to build up a real understanding of things, and to be able to differentiate between things they don't understand and things they do understand. I think some people end up finding that difficult because they start to see all the things they don't understand, and then they feel bad about how little they know.
But the point of the types of activities that are recommended (like the mini projects and the idea trees) is to start with something small and simple and build up a real understanding of the knowledge. And then you can do that with some more things, and you can make connections between the knowledge you have, and you can use it to add and build new knowledge.
So the point of these activities is to find something simple enough that you can succeed at it and fully understand what you are doing. If you can do that with a bunch of simple things, then you can build them up to more complex things, and you can have understanding at each new layer/step. And that way you can end up learning more complicated things with a real conceptual understanding (instead of just memorizing keywords and formulas well enough to pass the tests).
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Dface
Thank you for replying.
I think you are probably being too hard on yourself, and you aren't really worse than other people in the ways that you think you are.
Yeah, I hear this a lot from other people. I think im seeing how things work but in a wrong way
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Dface
FI is trying to aim for something more than that though.
I think this is why I find working here more difficult than something like staying in school or working at McDonalds.
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Dface
is to start with something small and simple and build up a real understanding of the knowledge.
That makes sense. I am doing all these little activities that concern parts of my life cuz from that I can figure how my life works. And from that I can figure how to make my life better by adding more things to it.
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Firebench
@Dface Could it be that you're putting yourself under pressure to go fast, making lots of mistakes and then never gaining mastery?
You've posted several trees to this thread, but are they any good? Can you see any errors in them? Can you improve them?
Why did you choose the wording "Waking up to go to work", rather than "Preparing to go to work"? Why is the word "GO" in "GO to work" capitalized? Was that a mistake or intentional? Why are you including the step of "GO to work" under the heading of "Waking up to go to work"? Is "Get clothes" sufficient of an instruction? Wouldn't you have to put them on too? Who is this tree aimed at? Would a robot be able to follow the instructions? Why "Eat food" - what else would you eat? What do you mean by "self care"? How many is "a few water bottles"? Etc.
Rather than posting dozens of trees, I suggest you iterate on one tree, gradually improving it by noticing errors and correcting them, until you've drawn as much learning from it as you can. You can carefully explain each error you detect, the corrections you make, and how you will prevent the error in the future. If you post your explanations here, you can get criticisms of them too. Take your time over your posts. The slow way is the fast way.
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Dface
Thanks for replying. I think what I write down for my trees requires my judgement. I need to work on judging what's good to put in or leave out on my trees.
I think I can improve on each project by explaining why I wrote each node a certain way. That way I can have something to build on. I can improve each node to find a better way to plan out the project.
Instead of saying "Use water bottles for self care", I can say "use water bottles for personal hygiene". I like the phrase personal hygiene better, cuz it gets across that the water bottles are used for cleanliness. It's more specific.
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Elliot
Firebench
Please stop trying to teach people here before having any track record of learning any FI material successfully yourself.
You should focus on either learning something yourself or, in the alternative, (I don't recommend it for you) debate. If you disagree with me or ingracke, you can respond directly to what you disagree with. But it's problematic when you give conflicting advice without confronting us directly.
I didn't respond when you did the same thing with
Farouk
because I don't think you want criticism. I also don't think you're open to debating to a conclusion (agreement or length five impasse chain; no boundaries on making connections to related topics) and I don't think you know how either. If you actually did want to debate the matter, I could criticize what you said to
Dface
or
Farouk
, but I don't want to preemptively argue about that while I doubt you're willing or able to debate in a serious, rigorous way that reaches a conclusion. But don't try to teach people and hold yourself up as an expert teacher, at FI, using claims that aren't actually open to unbounded critical discussion.
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Firebench
Please stop trying to teach people here before having any track record of learning any FI material successfully yourself.
I was trying to be helpful. I thought my suggestions complemented
ingracke
's explanations. I don't want to tread on your toes. You haven't posted much to Basecamp recently. I made a guess that you don't consider it worth your time.
I'm not sure why having a track record is important. If you criticize my knowledge that's one thing, but how is saying I don't have a "track record" any different from saying I don't have enough authority?
But don't try to teach people and hold yourself up as an expert teacher, at FI, using claims that aren't actually open to unbounded critical discussion.
I have taught tree writing outside of FI, so I felt confident enough to make suggestions.
I can see the merits of stating my claims in a strong form that can be directly criticized. I will try to do that in future.
What makes you doubt my inclination or ability to debate to a conclusion?
Notified 19 people
Elliot
What makes you doubt my inclination or ability to debate to a conclusion?
Will you debate to a conclusion, yes or no?
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Firebench
I need to think about it. Why didn't you answer my question?
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Firebench
I need some things clarified:
What is the topic that we would debate?
What do you mean exactly by "to a conclusion"? What are the exit criteria?
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Elliot
As I said, the proposed topic is my criticisms of your posts.
I already answered re "to a conclusion". I stated exit criteria and linked more info. It seems like you were unwilling or unable to read my post adequately to understand what it said. Try reading it again I guess. (This is an example of one of the reasons I don't expect a debate to work.)
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Firebench
I read both your post and the linked page. By the way, the linked page only used the word "conclusion" once and did not explain what you meant by it.
You seem to be quite hostile. I don't know why. Didn't it occur to you that I might have read carefully what you wrote and been asking for more specific information, rather than for you to restate what you had already said?
What I want is to know exactly what is the topic and exactly what are the exit criteria - not just "agreement", but agreement on exactly what propositions? You said there would be "no boundaries on making connections to related topics". My concern is that we could end up far away from our starting point. If we are crystal clear about what exactly we were trying to gain agreement on, we can keep it focused. If it's agreement on "your criticisms of my posts" then will you state them concisely and clearly up front and make sure they're not added to as we go along?
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Firebench
Let me change that statement "You seem to be hostile.", which is hard to criticize, to a question: Are you hostile towards me?
By hostile, I mean not trying to understand me or thinking well of me.
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Justin Mallone
I read both your post and the linked page. By the way, the linked page only used the word "conclusion" once and did not explain what you meant by it.
It was linked from the article Elliot linked, and starts off with "What is a debate? What is an impasse chain? How do debates rationally reach conclusions? How can you rationally end a debate unilaterally? How do you deal with a person with the time and energy to keep taking the last word? I’ll explain." Seems relevant.
You seem to be quite hostile.
Can you give a specific quote you thought was hostile, and explain what you specifically thought was hostile about it?
I don't know why.
You seem to be assuming your interpretation regarding hostility is correct. Do you think such an assumption is warranted? Do you think you have a track record of correctly interpreting hostility, in this community, that warrants such an assumption? Are you open to criticism and to reconsideration of this assumption?
Didn't it occur to you that I might have read carefully what you wrote and been asking for more specific information, rather than for you to restate what you had already said?
If you want to communicate successfully, you need to state with specificity - using quotes and the like, ideally - what's unclear to you, rather than doing things like assuming the other person is being hostile because they're unable to guess what's unclear based on the very limited information that you are providing.
What I want is to know exactly what is the topic and exactly what are the exit criteria - not just "agreement", but agreement on exactly what propositions? You said there would be "no boundaries on making connections to related topics". My concern is that we could end up far away from our starting point.
Successfully resolving an issue can often lead to discussions that wind up far from where they start. You seem to regard that as a problem or concern, but don't state exactly what your objection is.
If we are crystal clear about what exactly we were trying to gain agreement on, we can keep it focused.
If a discussion winds up far away from the initial topic but the far-away point is still relevant to the initial topic in some way relevant to the initial topic's resolution, what's the problem?
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Elliot
I also don't think you're open to debating to a conclusion (agreement or length five impasse chain; no boundaries on making connections to related topics)
I gave exit criteria. You didn't ask a question about the ones I gave. You didn't take what I said, engage with it, and ask for further details. You asked like I hadn't given any and provided no useful information about what you found inadequate about what I'd already said. You could have written your question identically if I hadn't already given exit criteria.
Conclusion by agreement requires mutual, unanimous agreement to conclude. If either person thinks there's anything more to say that's relevant, and wants to, then conclusion by agreement has not been reached. If someone does that in an unreasonable or irrelevant way, the recourse is an impasse chain.
not added to as we go along
No. That is not what unbounded and allowing any related topics into the discussion means.
I don't know what you think is hostile or why. I don't agree. If you're actually willing to have a discussion, you should bring that up then. If you're not, then don't flame me with accusations that you aren't willing to address criticism of.
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Elliot
By hostile, I mean not trying to understand me or thinking well of me.
Forming (tentative) negative judgments re people, e.g. that they lack certain skills, are bad at certain things, or are wrong about some stuff, is not what "hostile" means.
I am trying to understand.
EDIT: added "(tentative)"
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Firebench
I should have been more explicit. I was careless. I made an assumption that you would guess that I was after more specific detail, rather than that I hadn't read what you wrote. I can see why, from what I wrote, you might think that I had not read what you wrote.
The reason for my carelessness is that you had replied to my previous post immediately, and I wanted to respond quickly, in case you were waiting for a reply.
The reason I think you're hostile is that you have slipped in several comments about your negative judgments of me and I think they are both unnecessary and unfriendly.
Examples:
"I also don't think you're open to debating to a conclusion" "I don't think you know how either." "I doubt you're willing or able to debate in a serious, rigorous way"
You have not adequately explained how you came to these judgments, even though I have asked. You stated an example that occurred after you had already made the judgment.
Perhaps you can include these details when you criticize my posts.
I accept a debate, if you are still offering it.
Notified 19 people
Elliot
I accept a debate
ok. first question is venue. i would prefer curi.us because fully public permalinks, no need to transfer/repost/reformat stuff later to get it up, and you can't edit or delete posts. also has nested quoting (basecamp does too using tab on quoted text). also i don't have a working process to write in markdown and then post it in basecamp with formatting. "copy as rich text" in ulysses, then paste in basecamp, doesn't work well: loses headings and converts quotes to italics. will you use curi.us or something else suitable?
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Firebench
Another explanation that I considered was that those comments (the ones I quoted in my last message) were a form of reverse psychology - trying to manipulate me into accepting a debate.
My intuition based on the limited amount of knowledge I have of you, is that you don't generally play games like that.
But I would like to know why you think it beneficial to include them, particularly without any explanation.
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Firebench
I would like to use Basecamp for the venue. It provides me with some additional anonymity compared with curi.us and distance from it. I'm not at all keen to be associated with that site because too many people in my world would be repelled by your political takes on things, and that might create difficulties for me.
I understand using Basecamp is not your ideal and means more work for your. I don't know of a better alternative.
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Firebench
Just to reassure you: I have not edited, let alone deleted, a post since we discussed it. And I have no intention of doing so again.
I planned for this to be quick to post(5 minutes), but it took me like 30 mins to make. I was trying to confirm online that "get all in-game trophies" was actually part of the "Complete 30 skill points" node. It wasn't so I included the node at the end.
Notified 19 people
Dface
Baking McDonalds Pies: List: •Get lots of pies or exact # of pies depending on how busy it is •Put pies on a tray with tray liner •Slide pies in oven using oven mit •Bake pies for 12 mins •Take pies out with oven mit after 12 mins •Serve pies in carton pie box
It was harder to brainstorm using a tree cuz I was overthinking it. I don't like how the brainstormed tree came out. I like starting from the list more cuz it was faster and more spontaneous.
I want to time myself, kind of like how speed runners do, with each part of the project steps. I want to see what takes me long to do so I can improve.
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Elliot
Good idea about timing. Also the tree organization looks fine
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Dface
Thank you
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Elliot
Since you got the initial tree stuff figured out, some things you could do next besides your irl task speedrunning:
- using trees in harder ways, e.g. to analyze paragraphs - reading books - mindfulness meditation or some other way to work on emotions - try to have a debate and see how it goes, what problems come up
Notified 18 people
Elliot
btw i was thinking pick one, not try to do all
Notified 18 people
Dface
Ok they all sound very important. I want to use trees and analyze paragraphs. I just dont know where it's easy to start.
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Elliot
pick a paragraph from anywhere and give it a try. you could begin with variety. e.g. get a paragraph from a novel. a paragraph from a blog post. a paragraph from a debate. a paragraph from a textbook. etc.
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Elliot
if you can't do it in some cases, then that's a conclusion. failing at a particular paragraph is a way to end the task. don't get stuck for a long time trying to get the tree done. just gather some data about which paragraphs you could and couldn't do. if you try 5-10 and can't do any you can then make a plan for what to do about that. if you can do some then doing some more similar ones would be a reasonable place to start.
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Dface
Ok
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Dface
Starship troopers:
Off duty he wasn’t bad — for a sergeant. You could even call him "Jelly" to his face. Not recruits, of course, but anybody who had made at least one combat drop.
This turned out not good I think. I thought I can use a tree to analyze a page I was on recently on Starship troopers, but I forgot a lot of what I read. I forgot the context so I just went to the first page to analyze a paragraph.
I ended up just breaking down each sentence from the like the 5th paragraph of the book. I tried to breakdown the first sentence's grammar cuz I thought the grammar of a sentence can give us info about what's happeneing.
Notified 18 people
Dface
I think if a person, who doesnt read much, would read this tree and look at "someone wasn't something" and say "why are you changing the sentence like that? I know it said Jelal wasnt bad."
I would say that I wanted to give a shorter way of reading that sentence. That that's the basis of the sentence. I shouldve added this info in the tree
Notified 18 people
Dface
Another attempt at the same paragraph:
Off duty he wasn’t bad — for a sergeant.
•"He" is Jelly or Jelal •Jelly is a seargent •Jelly goes off duty •Jelly isnt bad •Jelly is being linked to something •The link "wasn't" is in the past tense •Jelly is a sergeant. •Jelly being a sergeant is related to the sentence.
You could even call him "Jelly" to his face.
•The reader is being refered to with you. •If the reader were to encounter Jelly this applies to them •The reader is not exactly us but someone familiar with the narrator's context. •Jelal can be called Jelly
Not recruits, ofcourse, but anybody who had made at least one combat drop.
•the narrator specifies who can call the sergaent Jelly •Recruits cant call him Jelly •Recruits are new soldiers •Drops involve combat •Soldiers can go to more than 1 combat drop
Beyond our own solar system, there are more planets than stars in night sky.
•Something takes place outside our solar system •Our solar system is made of planets that revolve around the sun •A system is something that has parts to work as a whole. •There are planets outside our solar system •There stars outside our solar system. •The planets outside our solar system outnumber the stars outside.
So far, we have discovered thousands of planetary systems orbiting other stars in the Milky Way, with more planets being found all the time.
•As humans we discover new things •We have ways to see very far away •Planets orbit things •Other stars are strong enough to make planets orbit •People in the past have discovered more solar systems •More planets are found at a rate.
Most of the hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy are thought to have planets of their own, and the Milky Way is but one of perhaps 100 billion galaxies in the universe.
This is difficult im trying to break things down with lists and trees but it's all unorganized
Notified 18 people
Dface
Next paragraph of the NASA article(all quoted text below is one paragraph):
While our planet is in some ways a mere speck in the vast cosmos, we have a lot of company out there.
•"a lot of company" is more planets than stars so a ton •"Company" refers to other planets •"out there" is in space beyond our solar system
It seems that we live in a universe packed with planets — a web of countless stars accompanied by families of objects, perhaps some with life of their own.
•A web is compared to the way planets and stars attract each other. •We don't just live in a planet but in a universe where there are other planets •The number of stars we have in the uniberse is countless •Not sure if "countless is an exagerration to say itll take way too long to count our stars in the sky
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Dface
The quoted text below is all one paragraph from Starship Troopers:
Jelly interrupted. "But Sarge!" he snapped.
•Jelly interrupted somebody. •It's better to read the last two paragraphs to get this paragraph. •Jelly is imitating the last soldier who talked to him. •Jelly is imitating the last soldier cuz he doesnt want to hear sass from him.
"The Surgeon ain’t making no drop — and neither are you, with a degree and a half of fever.
•Jelly says the surgeon isnt going down to fight •Jelly also says the soldier with the cold isnt fighting either. •Jelly wants his men to be completely healthy when they fight.
You think I got time to chat with you, just before a drop?Fall out! "
•Fall out means to not fight •Jelly doesnt have time to talk with someone who sasses him •Jelly and his men are about to go to a fight
Notified 18 people
Dface
Project Steps about organizing paragraph from Starship Troopers:
Jelly interrupted. "But Sarge!" he snapped. "The Surgeon ain’t making no drop — and neither are you, with a degree and a half of fever. You think I got time to chat with you, just before a drop?Fall out! "
•Separate the paragraph into sentences. •Separate quoted text •Separate quoted sentences •Analyze each sentence •What is each sentencr saying? •What does this tell us about the story's background? •what is the context? •How does analyzing the sentence different than just reading ahead? •What does the sentence's grammar tell us about the story?
•Analyze each sentence from start to finish
Notified 18 people
Dface
Redone Project Steps for analyzing paragraph from Starship Troopers:
One of the things I talked about was being explicit about how you're connecting stuff. You can even alternate regular nodes and nodes that explain a connection.
i don't know which videos have this stuff, but justin made tables of contents for all the videos, and i attached a file with all the tables of contents so you can search them all at once instead of having to go to each video individually to see what's in it.
I made another tree before this one, but I forgot to mention about getting the materials to even start the project. This was easy for me to mess up because there was a lot of steps.
I think it's important to mention about getting the cleaning equipment cuz if I had someone else do my project they wouldn't even know how to start. I think I didn't mention getting the equipment cuz I assumed that I already had the stuff in my hands.
First tree:
•Get cleaning attire
•Get cleaning tools
•Place tools on a nearby shelf
•Make sure I can filter an individual vat
•Drain vat
•Use cleaning tools to clean vat
•Configure vat to wash itself while cleaning
•Fill vat back up with oil
•Repeat cleaning process for every vat and second fryer
•Place a broken down cardboard box on floor next to sink
•Roll up a paper towel to clog oil pipe
•Take out fryer pan from oil pipe
•Clog pipe
•Bring pan to the back on the cardboard box
•Dismantle pan into parts
•Wash each part with water
•Trash filter pad inside pan
•Replace filter pad while reassembling fryer pan
•Return pan to fryer
•Unclog oil pipe
•Connect pan to oil pipe
•Repeat filter pad replacement for second fryer
My thoughts: I think this project steps is messy and long. It has 22 steps and Im treating each step as being equal in level of detail.
I can shorten the first two steps with: get cleaning equipment. I think I can shorten this tree more if I put more thought into it. That way it's less overwhelming
It's a big tree. I think it's a good idea to work on smaller projects to get used to grouping steps.
sorta. a list can sometimes be easier to make but harder to use. sometimes i brainstorm a list first, then organize it as a later step. sometimes you can make a tree right away but sometimes you don't yet know how to organize things so brainstorming without organizing is one way to proceed.
The tree was easy to make cuz I grouped the stuff from my list
I tried to say I learned something small but i still made an error. Discussion is hard.
I want to say that I learned that lists are good for brainstorming. Trees are good for organizing lists.
List:
•Mine lots of materials
•Make sure there is oxygen for your duplicants
•Build beds for duplicants
•Make a restroom for your duplicants.
•Let them sleep in the dark
Tree:
•Maintain good oxygen levels
•Make power for oxygen diffuser
•Build stations for duplicant needs
•Make duplicants mine for materials.
•Make one duplicant dig outwards to explore
•Make another duplicant mine copper
•Make another duplicant mine sandstone
•Build a restroom
•Build a sleeping room with no light
•Forage for food
Related: how is reading books going?
I think that's what school is good for cuz they know exactly what you need to learn and they put it all in a syllabus.
That made me think that Im not really building towards anything knowledge wise. Im mostly learning how to appease people.
It's just hard being independent and working on something big.
I didnt even know how to start it. I didnt even know what to ask help for. In the end I turned it in late and did it completely wrong. Lots of people hated me after it and never wanted to work with me again.
They don't really know exactly what you need though. They do put a bunch of stuff on a syllabus, and often succeed at giving an overview of a topic. But they don't actually know how to build up a conceptual understanding of something. When a student manages to get a good conceptual understanding, they usually had to do a lot of the work themselves. (Including things like getting tutors, or finding other sources like books and videos to learn from.)
A lot of people don't notice this at all though because their standards are low. If they learned enough to pass the tests, they think they learned the subject. They don't expect to have a conceptual understanding of things, and don't really notice that they don't. (They do notice that they have a stronger understanding of some things than others, but they don't see it as a problem or as a sign that they don't really understand some of those topics.)
~Everybody misses some things. And sometimes the things you think you missed weren't even covered. It's actually common in textbooks and lectures for the material to not even cover or include all the parts that you need to understand & do all the problems. (I have seen this a lot in math & science textbooks: the problems section includes problems that would be impossible if you could only use the information given in the textbook. So the textbook is NOT teaching enough to actually do the problems. And university lectures are the same.)
It's possible that the reason it failed you is that you had higher expectations of your own knowledge and didn't like "learning" things you didn't really understand. This is a somewhat common issue. It happens to a lot of students, and they usually just blame themselves. They don't realize that most of the other students *also* didn't really understand the material.
It is really common for adults to have a "fake it until they make it" attitude. "Imposter syndrome" is also really common. A lot of successful people feel like they don't really know what they are doing. I think you are probably being too hard on yourself, and you aren't really worse than other people in the ways that you think you are.
There is a real issue with the world though, and with "Imposter syndrome". One reason that many people feel like imposters is because some part of them *knows* that they don't really have a good, solid conceptual understanding of the things that they work with every day. But, even without that understanding, people still manage to do OK. E.g., science still functions and makes progress, even though many (most?) scientists have a bad understanding of science.
It is possible to go through regular school and pass all your classes without having a strong conceptual understanding of the ideas, and go on to have a successful life and do work that contributes to society.
FI is trying to aim for something more than that though. It is trying to help people learn to build up a real understanding of things, and to be able to differentiate between things they don't understand and things they do understand. I think some people end up finding that difficult because they start to see all the things they don't understand, and then they feel bad about how little they know.
But the point of the types of activities that are recommended (like the mini projects and the idea trees) is to start with something small and simple and build up a real understanding of the knowledge. And then you can do that with some more things, and you can make connections between the knowledge you have, and you can use it to add and build new knowledge.
So the point of these activities is to find something simple enough that you can succeed at it and fully understand what you are doing. If you can do that with a bunch of simple things, then you can build them up to more complex things, and you can have understanding at each new layer/step. And that way you can end up learning more complicated things with a real conceptual understanding (instead of just memorizing keywords and formulas well enough to pass the tests).
You've posted several trees to this thread, but are they any good? Can you see any errors in them? Can you improve them?
Example
Why did you choose the wording "Waking up to go to work", rather than "Preparing to go to work"? Why is the word "GO" in "GO to work" capitalized? Was that a mistake or intentional? Why are you including the step of "GO to work" under the heading of "Waking up to go to work"? Is "Get clothes" sufficient of an instruction? Wouldn't you have to put them on too? Who is this tree aimed at? Would a robot be able to follow the instructions? Why "Eat food" - what else would you eat? What do you mean by "self care"? How many is "a few water bottles"? Etc.
Rather than posting dozens of trees, I suggest you iterate on one tree, gradually improving it by noticing errors and correcting them, until you've drawn as much learning from it as you can. You can carefully explain each error you detect, the corrections you make, and how you will prevent the error in the future. If you post your explanations here, you can get criticisms of them too. Take your time over your posts. The slow way is the fast way.
I think I can improve on each project by explaining why I wrote each node a certain way. That way I can have something to build on. I can improve each node to find a better way to plan out the project.
Instead of saying "Use water bottles for self care", I can say "use water bottles for personal hygiene". I like the phrase personal hygiene better, cuz it gets across that the water bottles are used for cleanliness. It's more specific.
You should focus on either learning something yourself or, in the alternative, (I don't recommend it for you) debate. If you disagree with me or ingracke, you can respond directly to what you disagree with. But it's problematic when you give conflicting advice without confronting us directly.
I didn't respond when you did the same thing with
I was trying to be helpful. I thought my suggestions complemented
I'm not sure why having a track record is important. If you criticize my knowledge that's one thing, but how is saying I don't have a "track record" any different from saying I don't have enough authority?
I have taught tree writing outside of FI, so I felt confident enough to make suggestions.
I can see the merits of stating my claims in a strong form that can be directly criticized. I will try to do that in future.
What makes you doubt my inclination or ability to debate to a conclusion?
Will you debate to a conclusion, yes or no?
I already answered re "to a conclusion". I stated exit criteria and linked more info. It seems like you were unwilling or unable to read my post adequately to understand what it said. Try reading it again I guess. (This is an example of one of the reasons I don't expect a debate to work.)
You seem to be quite hostile. I don't know why. Didn't it occur to you that I might have read carefully what you wrote and been asking for more specific information, rather than for you to restate what you had already said?
What I want is to know exactly what is the topic and exactly what are the exit criteria - not just "agreement", but agreement on exactly what propositions? You said there would be "no boundaries on making connections to related topics". My concern is that we could end up far away from our starting point. If we are crystal clear about what exactly we were trying to gain agreement on, we can keep it focused. If it's agreement on "your criticisms of my posts" then will you state them concisely and clearly up front and make sure they're not added to as we go along?
By hostile, I mean not trying to understand me or thinking well of me.
Did you read this as well? https://www.elliottemple.com/essays/debates-and-impasse-chains
It was linked from the article Elliot linked, and starts off with "What is a debate? What is an impasse chain? How do debates rationally reach conclusions? How can you rationally end a debate unilaterally? How do you deal with a person with the time and energy to keep taking the last word? I’ll explain." Seems relevant.
Can you give a specific quote you thought was hostile, and explain what you specifically thought was hostile about it?
You seem to be assuming your interpretation regarding hostility is correct. Do you think such an assumption is warranted? Do you think you have a track record of correctly interpreting hostility, in this community, that warrants such an assumption? Are you open to criticism and to reconsideration of this assumption?
If you want to communicate successfully, you need to state with specificity - using quotes and the like, ideally - what's unclear to you, rather than doing things like assuming the other person is being hostile because they're unable to guess what's unclear based on the very limited information that you are providing.
I gave exit criteria. You didn't ask a question about the ones I gave. You didn't take what I said, engage with it, and ask for further details. You asked like I hadn't given any and provided no useful information about what you found inadequate about what I'd already said. You could have written your question identically if I hadn't already given exit criteria.
Conclusion by agreement requires mutual, unanimous agreement to conclude. If either person thinks there's anything more to say that's relevant, and wants to, then conclusion by agreement has not been reached. If someone does that in an unreasonable or irrelevant way, the recourse is an impasse chain.
No. That is not what unbounded and allowing any related topics into the discussion means.
I don't know what you think is hostile or why. I don't agree. If you're actually willing to have a discussion, you should bring that up then. If you're not, then don't flame me with accusations that you aren't willing to address criticism of.
Forming (tentative) negative judgments re people, e.g. that they lack certain skills, are bad at certain things, or are wrong about some stuff, is not what "hostile" means.
I am trying to understand.
EDIT: added "(tentative)"
The reason for my carelessness is that you had replied to my previous post immediately, and I wanted to respond quickly, in case you were waiting for a reply.
The reason I think you're hostile is that you have slipped in several comments about your negative judgments of me and I think they are both unnecessary and unfriendly.
Examples:
Perhaps you can include these details when you criticize my posts.
I accept a debate, if you are still offering it.
ok. first question is venue. i would prefer curi.us because fully public permalinks, no need to transfer/repost/reformat stuff later to get it up, and you can't edit or delete posts. also has nested quoting (basecamp does too using tab on quoted text). also i don't have a working process to write in markdown and then post it in basecamp with formatting. "copy as rich text" in ulysses, then paste in basecamp, doesn't work well: loses headings and converts quotes to italics. will you use curi.us or something else suitable?
My intuition based on the limited amount of knowledge I have of you, is that you don't generally play games like that.
But I would like to know why you think it beneficial to include them, particularly without any explanation.
I understand using Basecamp is not your ideal and means more work for your. I don't know of a better alternative.
List:
•Get lots of pies or exact # of pies depending on how busy it is
•Put pies on a tray with tray liner
•Slide pies in oven using oven mit
•Bake pies for 12 mins
•Take pies out with oven mit after 12 mins
•Serve pies in carton pie box
Tree(starting from list above):
Tree(brainstormed on ):
It was harder to brainstorm using a tree cuz I was overthinking it. I don't like how the brainstormed tree came out. I like starting from the list more cuz it was faster and more spontaneous.
I didn't like my 1st tree cuz I couldnt turn the list into a tree.
Cleaning my room 1st tree attempt:
I want to time myself, kind of like how speed runners do, with each part of the project steps. I want to see what takes me long to do so I can improve.
- using trees in harder ways, e.g. to analyze paragraphs
- reading books
- mindfulness meditation or some other way to work on emotions
- try to have a debate and see how it goes, what problems come up
This turned out not good I think. I thought I can use a tree to analyze a page I was on recently on Starship troopers, but I forgot a lot of what I read. I forgot the context so I just went to the first page to analyze a paragraph.
I ended up just breaking down each sentence from the like the 5th paragraph of the book. I tried to breakdown the first sentence's grammar cuz I thought the grammar of a sentence can give us info about what's happeneing.
I would say that I wanted to give a shorter way of reading that sentence. That that's the basis of the sentence. I shouldve added this info in the tree
•Jelly is a seargent
•Jelly goes off duty
•Jelly isnt bad
•Jelly is being linked to something
•The link "wasn't" is in the past tense
•Jelly is a sergeant.
•Jelly being a sergeant is related to the sentence.
•If the reader were to encounter Jelly this applies to them
•The reader is not exactly us but someone familiar with the narrator's context.
•Jelal can be called Jelly
•Recruits cant call him Jelly
•Recruits are new soldiers
•Drops involve combat
•Soldiers can go to more than 1 combat drop
Paragraph is quoted text below:
•Our solar system is made of planets that revolve around the sun
•A system is something that has parts to work as a whole.
•There are planets outside our solar system
•There stars outside our solar system.
•The planets outside our solar system outnumber the stars outside.
•We have ways to see very far away
•Planets orbit things
•Other stars are strong enough to make planets orbit
•People in the past have discovered more solar systems
•More planets are found at a rate.
•"Company" refers to other planets
•"out there" is in space beyond our solar system
•We don't just live in a planet but in a universe where there are other planets
•The number of stars we have in the uniberse is countless
•Not sure if "countless is an exagerration to say itll take way too long to count our stars in the sky
•It's better to read the last two paragraphs to get this paragraph.
•Jelly is imitating the last soldier who talked to him.
•Jelly is imitating the last soldier cuz he doesnt want to hear sass from him.
•Jelly also says the soldier with the cold isnt fighting either.
•Jelly wants his men to be completely healthy when they fight.
•Jelly doesnt have time to talk with someone who sasses him
•Jelly and his men are about to go to a fight
•Separate quoted text
•Separate quoted sentences
•Analyze each sentence
•What is each sentencr saying?
•What does this tell us about the story's background?
•what is the context?
•How does analyzing the sentence different than just reading ahead?
•What does the sentence's grammar tell us about the story?
•Analyze each sentence from start to finish
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKx6lO5RmaetREa9-jt2T-qX9XO2SD0l2
One of the things I talked about was being explicit about how you're connecting stuff. You can even alternate regular nodes and nodes that explain a connection.
i don't know which videos have this stuff, but justin made tables of contents for all the videos, and i attached a file with all the tables of contents so you can search them all at once instead of having to go to each video individually to see what's in it.
I like this tree way more than my other ones.
I rearranged the tree cuz I think the narrator feeling bad is equal to its former children: