FI Learning

For learning with practice. Posts are not private and could end up on Bing.

😊 People you care for.

How do guys deal with the fact that a lot of people one cares about are hopeless? These people that I care about are destined to make a lot of mistakes because of being bad at reason and irrationality. I can kind of see that those mistakes are about to happen. These mistakes will happen in projects that are about to take up in the near future or they are being irrational in conversations I am having with them. I don't know what I can do to help. I myself need help first. I need to work on myself first.

I'm not sure if I'm being controlled by culture (my guess is I am) when I think that in the end when you reflect on what you have accomplished in life the answer is contained in how many valuable relationships you developed over your life. I guess value of a relationships is characterized by the amount of fulfilling moments shared/created with that person. More moments = more value. I fear that as I become better at philosophy I will start seeing more problems that people make in their life. And that will result in me losing them. I don't know what role rationality and irrationality play in value of a relationship.

(I just saw that Firebench is having a similar conversation. If somehow these conversations are similar then I can try to shift this conversation there and merge them. I haven't understood the problems being discussed in that conversation but I feel my problems are different.)

Comments & Events

Elliot, Fallible Ideas
Having high confidence that you and someone are not equals (and you're superior) is generally bad for having a personal relationship with them.

Keeping in mind relevance helps. You can be superior as a scientist and still get along with your family. It's fine if people have specialties. And you can hang out and watch TV with your e.g. brother without him needing to learn the science stuff that you know. And meanwhile you don't know as much about his career, e.g. being an electrician or makeup artist.

Logic and rationality can be (approximately) separated from morality. If you don't think you're significantly morally superior, and they know you don't, it helps give them something. People don't like being worse or outclassed at everything.

If you're better than people at reasoning, you're still typically going to lose the majority of arguments with them about their specialities, e.g. their profession. Their greater experience with the topic can more than make up for your skill advantage.

If you got such a huge lead at reasoning that you were outclassing people at their own profession, despite having little experience at it, that's harder to deal with. Hopefully by that point, they'd respect you and be proud of you, which could make it OK. That'd be easier for them if you had public recognition like awards and millions of fans. Whereas if you think you're way way way smarter than them but the world in general disagrees, then it's harder for them to accept and be OK with your apparent arrogance.
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
If you want things from people that they can actually provide, successfully, then it can work. They can do something good or right when interacting with you, that you respect instead of refuting. If you want them to change and you don't like or appreciate them as they are, then it generally won't work out.
Really, really helpful reply. It calmed down a lot of my anxieties which I've been carrying for a few weeks. It will need a lot more back and forth to understand this properly and solve related problems. I will continue tomorrow as I need to sleep now. Will get a good sleep now because of this. Thanks for that.

I keep having these experiences which proves again and again that FI is unlike anything else. Most other philosophy is bad and ivory tower stuff. Forever grateful to FI.
 I myself need help first. I need to work on myself first.

Yes, I agree. 

I fear that as I become better at philosophy I will start seeing more problems that people make in their life.

Yes, this does happen. 

And that will result in me losing them.

That doesn't have to be the result. That actually used to be a fear of mine. As I learned more about the types of mistakes people were making, I felt like I was growing apart from them and was less able to get along with them in certain ways. But one of the mistakes I was making was that I was working on my ideas about rationality and logic *without* working very much on my ideas about my own internal emotions. So I would do things like get frustrated when people didn't understand me or wouldn't have the types of discussion I wanted to have or made mistakes I thought were bad. And I thought that if I got smarter, I would just see *more* of their mistakes, and the problem would get worse. 

Now that I have started working on my ideas about my own emotions, I actually get along with my friends and family *better* than I used to. I get along with them better than I did in the situations I was talking about in the paragraph above, and better than I did before I started learning philosophy at all. I am able to see their mistakes without taking them so personally and without finding them hurtful or emotionally painful. I am able to judge people as wrong in certain ways without it hurting me that they are wrong like it used to. (It used to hurt both because I wanted them to be better for themselves, and because I wanted them to be better so that I could have better people in my life.) I can simultaneously be more able to see people's mistakes and be more accepting of them. 

I am not perfect at this stuff, and I am still learning about it. It isn't a solved problem for me. BUT the thing I was afraid of hasn't happened. Learning more has made this problem *better* for me, NOT worse. So I anticipate that learning even more will continue to make it better. 

I don't usually respond to things with so much personal information, but I think it's relevant to this issue. This really was a major fear of mine, and stopped me progressing at philosophy for a while because I didn't want to give up my relationships with people. I didn't like the idea of a future where I no longer valued those people and was no longer able to get along with them. So I think it's really notable that working on my own emotions has been so helpful, both with my ability to understand philosophy AND with the problems I was having with my personal relationships. 

(I just saw that Firebench is having a similar conversation. If somehow these conversations are similar then I can try to shift this conversation there and merge them. I haven't understood the problems being discussed in that conversation but I feel my problems are different.)

My reply to Firebench was related to your issue too. There is a lot of similarity. And I purposely wrote my reply to him to be something that applies generally to people, not just to be specific to him. But your situations and goals are different, so I wouldn't recommend merging the conversations. 
deroj 👍
Elliot, Fallible Ideas
Loosely replying to ingracke ingracke  and partly just saying more about the general topic:

Howard Roark gets along with Mike (the constructor worker) among others.

Being good at stuff has lots of advantages re getting along with people. You can avoid lots of misunderstandings or petty fights.

And if you're more self-sufficient, independent and successful, you're in a better position not to ask much of people, not to pressure them, and even to be generous with them. If you're independently happy, and not reliant on controlling other people around you to try to make reality more to your liking, it's easier to have good relationships with people.

Lots of trouble with friends happens due to being needy, emotional, memey or insecure. But if your life is going great, then their imperfections shouldn't threaten or scare you. And if you're more confident, then you can avoid getting defensive when people judge you negatively, dislike something about you, disagree with you, etc.

If you develop some really intellectual interests that your friends and relatives don't have, and you're desperately lonely, that can lead to a lot of trouble because you want your friends and relatives to be something they're not and solve your loneliness problem. But if your intellectual interests are satisfied elsewhere, then it doesn't need to be a source of conflict with your friends and relatives.

It also helps to respect other people as independent entities with their own lives. And to internalize fallibilism and that disagreements are part of life and good ways to dealing with disagreement. In general, the fights between "rational" people and their families are more about the "rational" person being intolerant of disagreement than about the more conventional, normal people being intolerant. That's an avoidable error.

As with all progress, some things get easier but you'll also run into new, solvable problems.
deroj 👍