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Elliot Temple on September 20, 2015

Comments (114)

I have a few ideas.

First you need a visual image for Fallible Ideas. A logo. Something sophisticated and very professional. Like the Apple logo. Make this grand and sleek.

Hire a professional and buy ad space and make create marketing that creates mystery around FI and promises people two things:

- That you are going to reveal a secret.

- That people can have the life they want.

Give away tidbits about FI that will attract that special super awesome person you want.

What kind of special thought is required of a person to be open to FI? What will this person already know? Maybe it's not a kind of special level of knowledge but a thing, a unique trait.

I'm the kind of person who gets offended, shocked, outrageously so. And then goes take a peek again. So just this trait helps.

Maybe there are other positive traits.

A desire to be the best can be second-handed but can also be a desire of wanting never-ending self-improvement.

Start a comic serial magazine for kids with FI ideas relevant to kids that parents will want to read (not offend them greatly so no huge controversial stuff). Parents are easily offended by real life discussions but in the context of a comic, they might tolerate certain things and learn from certain things. It's hypotheticalization in a safe world that is not their world, they don't have to take it personally. But it will become part of them, especially if the characters are lovable.

Make a story based video game with FI situations. This can be for adults. Take advantage of the retro point and click movement for this, it's awesome.

Make FI list hard to get into. Make it precious. Make people play a very hard game to get in.

Anonymous at 1:56 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2727
Another idea:

Go after the people who resist TCS and FI, like Unschoolers, but who are in the best position to spread it (raise awesome children).

This can be done through a parenting site showing comparing Unschooling without FI with Unschooling with FI through little comics and why it's better with FI. Help them see it because they hate theoretical discussion. Cater for the preferences of your target some, VISUALLY. You don't have to be an environmentalist to like flower.

Anonymous at 2:00 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2729
Spread memes with FI quotes. with lolcats. or something. something ppl can google to find FI.

Anonymous at 2:01 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2730
for the unschool site, the hardest part is what text to write on it that will change their minds, etc, etc

> Make FI list hard to get into. Make it precious. Make people play a very hard game to get in.

if it's not public that means less discussion for me, harder to recruit people, less ability for everyone to reference arguments with permalinks

Anonymous at 2:03 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2731
i think the lolcats and internet "memes" stuff is bad.

i don't think doing stuff i think is bad is a good idea.

Elliot at 2:06 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2732
> for the unschool site, the hardest part is what text to write on it that will change their minds, etc, etc

don't think text. they get bored of text. they'd be like "i don't want theory i want practice" and "my phil is to do what works for us"

THAT'S IT! TITLE THE WEBSITE "WHAT WORKS FOR US" make it like an interactive picture book with parenting advice THROUGH PRACTICAL EXAMPLES which are little stories of possible scenes.

to show how awesome TCS is with hypotheticals.

think simple stories comparing problems being solved with unschooling and problems being solved with tcs.

>> Make FI list hard to get into. Make it precious. Make people play a very hard game to get in.
>
> if it's not public that means less discussion for me, harder to recruit people, less ability for everyone to reference arguments with permalinks

no, it's in full view still. but to participate they gotta win the game.

Anonymous at 2:10 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2733
> Start a comic serial magazine for kids with FI ideas relevant to kids that parents will want to read (not offend them greatly so no huge controversial stuff).

i don't know how to persuade people while leaving out principles and their implications. without serious philosophy ideas, how will i argue various things are true?

Anonymous at 2:10 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2734
> TITLE THE WEBSITE "WHAT WORKS FOR US"

and when they ask if i'm a parent and whether i've done all the things on the website with my kid(s) and what the results actually were?


> no, it's in full view still. but to participate they gotta win the game.

oh that makes more sense. still would make recruiting harder, harm activity levels. what kind of game?

Anonymous at 2:13 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2735
FI list already kind of has a test to keep the riff raff out: learn quote formatting or fuck off.

Anonymous at 2:13 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2736
>> Start a comic serial magazine for kids with FI ideas relevant to kids that parents will want to read (not offend them greatly so no huge controversial stuff).
>
> i don't know how to persuade people while leaving out principles and their implications. without serious philosophy ideas, how will i argue various things are true?

i don't mean leaving out principles but more specific political stuff or PUA or whatever can have parents running and not letting their kids read the comic.

this is just to introduce ppl to FI. it's not a full course.

and in the comic parents characters will be sharing principles with kid characters while problem solving with their kids, right? through speech bubbles.

Anonymous at 2:15 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2737
i think that epistemology principles and their implications for parenting are MUCH MUCH more offensive than the politics or PUA.

like, people hate criticism and seriousness. there's like this basic clash of values.

i used to offend the hell out of people on TCS list without bringing up politics and PUA.

Elliot at 2:17 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2738
>> no, it's in full view still. but to participate they gotta win the game.
>
> oh that makes more sense. still would make recruiting harder, harm activity levels.

this idea is more to find super awesome ppl that will WANT to be on FI and will WANT to participate. as you could see from facebook having ppl join a group is easy. invite all your friends and have them invite theirs. but then ppl don't want to be there, nothing happens.

> what kind of game?

you had that hard platformer. maybe that one? or maybe not that hard or not as long. something that challenges persistence. or challenges WANTING to think. a puzzle.

Anonymous at 2:19 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2739
FI list does not currently have a problem with too much low quality posting/posters.

Anonymous at 2:20 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2740
did Rami ever show you the scenes he wrote for a comic that then he gave up and didn't go forward because i was a bitch? they were good and it was tcs but nothing controversial.

comic characters are not criticizing the reader directly. they are not even criticizing, they are living their lives, solving their problems. it's different than you on TCS list criticizing a parent.

it's not going to be a comic about a guy going round criticizing parents lol.

it's about parents doing tcs.

Anonymous at 2:22 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2741
> FI list does not currently have a problem with too much low quality posting/posters.

are they welcome, then?

Anonymous at 2:24 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2742
> FI list already kind of has a test to keep the riff raff out: learn quote formatting or fuck off.

learning quoting is not as rewarding as like a winning a super hard game.

Anonymous at 2:25 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2743
@rami: no and i'm kinda skeptical b/c i don't think rami understands tcs much

if people other than me want to write comics, that's fine. maybe it'll help. i don't think it's my thing. i think specialization is good.


A nice hard game test is to beat all the levels in Toki Tori (1, not 2). However, there are spoilers online, so people can easily cheat. Also it's rather long.

One issue is, different people who'd be good posters have different preferences for games and puzzles.


low quality posters are not particularly welcome/wanted even if they, say, beat Toki Tori. shrug.

Elliot at 2:38 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2744
> learning quoting is not as rewarding as like a winning a super hard game.

It's more rewarding since you get to play the hardest game of all: philosophy!

Anonymous at 2:45 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2745
>> learning quoting is not as rewarding as like a winning a super hard game.
>
> It's more rewarding since you get to play the hardest game of all: philosophy!

True.

Anonymous at 2:47 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2746
> @rami: no and i'm kinda skeptical b/c i don't think rami understands tcs much

neither do i. i think it was good. you can correct the story mistakes.

> if people other than me want to write comics, that's fine. maybe it'll help. i don't think it's my thing. i think specialization is good.

i didn't tell you to do it yourself. hire ppl.

> A nice hard game test is to beat all the levels in Toki Tori (1, not 2). However, there are spoilers online, so people can easily cheat. Also it's rather long.
>
> One issue is, different people who'd be good posters have different preferences for games and puzzles.

true, forget that idea.

> low quality posters are not particularly welcome/wanted even if they, say, beat Toki Tori. shrug.

k.

Anonymous at 2:49 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2747
What about starting with a logo and ads then? The other ideas are more elaborate.

Anonymous at 2:52 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2748
i think i can't hire experts in general, b/c they aren't familiar with TCS and won't learn it. i think understanding the ideas is crucial to working with them for comics, marketing, etc

Anonymous at 2:53 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2749
i don't see the point of spending money on ads when i don't have material i think will be effective with the people who see the ads

Anonymous at 2:53 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2750
What do you mean by material to be effective? It's just ads to bring people to the FI site and list?

Anonymous at 2:55 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2751
i've literally been working for years on figuring out how to introduce people to FI, etc, effectively. i think it's very very hard, b/c the ideas themselves are very offensive to virtually everyone. there are some other problems involved, which i've posted about on FI sometimes.

Anonymous at 2:55 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2752
> What do you mean by material to be effective? It's just ads to bring people to the FI site and list?

like, intro material to get them to write good posts or see why FI matters or try to learn. to get them to see what FI is about and then be able to participate productively (productive for themselves, and for others too).

Anonymous at 2:55 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2753
> i think i can't hire experts in general, b/c they aren't familiar with TCS and won't learn it. i think understanding the ideas is crucial to working with them for comics, marketing, etc

hire rami for the story and me for the drawing

Anonymous at 3:25 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2756
and by hiring us you get to correct us

Anonymous at 3:25 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2757
> i've literally been working for years on figuring out how to introduce people to FI, etc, effectively. i think it's very very hard, b/c the ideas themselves are very offensive to virtually everyone. there are some other problems involved, which i've posted about on FI sometimes.

ppl love offensive ideas. have you seen die antwoord videos?

Anonymous at 3:26 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2758
my counter offer: do it for free.

Anonymous at 3:32 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2759
> ppl love offensive ideas. have you seen die antwoord videos?

certain types, not all

Anonymous at 3:32 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2760
do what for free?

Anonymous at 3:35 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2761
do the story and drawing for free. volunteer. like me.

Anonymous at 3:40 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2762
>> TITLE THE WEBSITE "WHAT WORKS FOR US"
>
> and when they ask if i'm a parent and whether i've done all the things on the website with my kid(s) and what the results actually were?

say the stories are based in real life scenarios but they were fictionalized to safeguard family privacy.

Anonymous at 3:58 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2763
> do the story and drawing for free. volunteer. like me.

i'm too poor for that.

Anonymous at 4:14 PM on September 20, 2015 | #2764
People want results. They want achievements.

You could add an achievements system and give them a gold dollar for each achievement they reach.
Like:
"Achievement: Your first post!"
"Achievement: You used correct quote formatting!"
"Achievement: You realised you're lying to yourself!"
"Achievement: You changed your mind!"

Gold dollars can be spent on nothing at all, like most game achievements, but they're shiny!

Anonymous at 1:42 AM on September 21, 2015 | #2770
Gamification!

Like Kahn Academy and most computer games now.

FUCK THAT. can't appease their retarded side to teach FI

Anonymous at 7:37 AM on September 21, 2015 | #2772
lol
agreed

But I think there's a nugget of value to that pile of shit.

People do stuff because they gain for it.

That sort of thing uses faux-achievements to help people lie to themselves about the value of what they're doing.

Helping people lie to themselves would be anti-FI ofc

But persuading people that engaging with FI is worthwhile means they need substantial gains. Why should they do FI instead of eg their career, their hobby, their social life? They learn from those things too (not as well as they think they do, but they have low standards and can't tell). They get useful relevant learning from those things, that applies to what they're already doing (ie getting better at their job, hobby, friends). They get mini-achievements when they a .1% pay rise, or someone gives them a compliment on their hobby, or they get laid, or whatever.

FI needs to compete with that for anyone to even notice it. I don't think it competes in a way people can easily grok the reach of.

Anonymous at 9:20 AM on September 21, 2015 | #2774
Lots of people aren't gonna waste a bunch of time getting to grips with the benefits of FI when there's a bazillion other things they could be doing all competing for their attention and giving them more enjoyment for less effort.

Anonymous at 9:22 AM on September 21, 2015 | #2775
> Lots of people aren't gonna waste a bunch of time getting to grips with the benefits of FI when there's a bazillion other things they could be doing all competing for their attention and giving them more enjoyment for less effort.


and how will joining that competition, competing on the same terms, help us?

this is just like the discussion about SENS fundraising, where they should play to their strengths instead of be just another generic charity competing at the same game as everyone else (a game where they have no fundamental advantage, and others are more experienced, established, etc).

Anonymous at 9:26 AM on September 21, 2015 | #2776
i think FI/TCS/Oism/etc offers plenty offers plenty of values IF IT WORKS and lots of posters are aware of this.

i think lots of people don't believe it'll work. some of them have tried some, and found it didn't work for them.

why didn't it work for them? well they didn't try correctly. they are bad at learning and thinking and studying and so on.

so in that context of being unable to do things like learn Rand's ideas, or learn what TCS means by "coercion" and how to avoid it, then people don't see value in FI.

FI could tell people about how to learn, but not if the people themselves block it. there has to be active participation by the learner. the guy themselves has to do some good things himself to get value from FI. so if he won't, then there's no value.

fundamentally what it comes down to is they don't want to live or think. so in that context, FI doesn't help them with their stuff, their non-values.

Anonymous at 9:36 AM on September 21, 2015 | #2777
Mises in Liberalism:

> The liberals were of the opinion that all men have the intellectual capacity to reason correctly about the difficult problems of social cooperation and to act accordingly. They were so impressed with the clarity and self-evidence of the reasoning by which they had arrived at their political ideas that they were quite unable to understand how anyone could fail to comprehend it. They never grasped two facts: first, that the masses lack the capacity to think logically and secondly, that in the eyes of most people, even when they are able to recognize the truth, a momentary, special advantage that may be enjoyed immediately appears more important than a lasting greater gain that must be deferred. Most people do not have even the intellectual endowments required to think through the—after all very complicated—problems of social cooperation, and they certainly do not have the will power necessary to make those provisional sacrifices that all social action demands. The slogans of interventionism and of socialism, especially proposals for the partial expropriation of private property, always find ready and enthusiastic approval with the masses, who expect to profit directly and immediately from them.

Anonymous at 5:44 PM on September 21, 2015 | #2793
>Go after the people who resist TCS and FI, like Unschoolers, but who are in the best position to spread it (raise awesome children).

why do you think unschoolers are good to go after?

unschoolers are pretty terrible. unschoolers hate criticism and objective knowledge.

i think one of the problems with the old TCS list is that it attracted unschooler type people. they superficially seem close to TCS in some ways, and they THINK they are closer to TCS than other parents. but they are worse in a lot of ways. in the ways that actually matter for learning philosophy.

is it just because they have children? if that is it, why not go after other parents instead?

Anonymous at 1:58 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2801
> and how will joining that competition, competing on the same terms, help us?

The thing you need to compete for (the appeal of personal gain) does not require competing on the same terms (instant gratification from empty reward systems).

Find a way to compete for the same thing in a better (real, honest) way. Find a better way to explain the rewards from the effort.

FI is offputting because:
1) super-harsh with crit, everything will be criticised, a lot (yes, it's mostly true, but it's a lot to take on for someone who's quite new to truth-seeking)
2) recommendations (if any are given at all) often involve "read a book", which takes hours, people already have things they'd like to do for hours, they're not going to read a book because FI asserts that it will improve their life or help them get more involved in FI (this thing they're not sold on yet)



possible solutions:
An alternative FI-lite group:
takes criticism more step-by-step, criticise one thing at a time, still crit all the mistakes but give the reader less total number of things critted at once

Generally:
Explain the value of referenced books better, be more specific about the gains of the books, maybe give quotes you think are particularly relevant to the issue being discussed
or write shorter books and essays on specific subjects (eg the Paths Forwards summary is I think a handy way of giving someone a taster of Paths Forward, they can read that quickly and then decide whether to continue to the full essay), or intros to subjects, that can then say "for more explanation/examples, read eg BoI"

Anonymous at 3:19 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2802
>An alternative FI-lite group:
takes criticism more step-by-step, criticise one thing at a time, still crit all the mistakes but give the reader less total number of things critted at once

i think reader should take the initiative to decide crits to work on first. The posts which are written are not *solely* for that one reader. There are lots of other readers and learners which also learn from those posts. Only criticizing on thing at a time would lead to lots less discussion and learning for everyone else. It's the reader's job to make it individualized for them, not the poster's.

Anonymous at 5:18 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2803
New people don't know all that and aren't all good at that yet. It doesn't help to treat them like they know all the best skills already and can manage everything well already.

Anonymous at 5:38 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2804
what if another learner would benefit most from writing out a criticism to some of a newer person's ideas (even if that newer person is already working on other stuff)?

people are going to talk about and examine *the ideas* which are interesting to them. i don't think you can or would want to hinder that sort of environment. i think stuff needs to be idea-focused, not people-focused.

better for learners to ignore stuff they don't want to learn about right now. than posters to not talk about stuff THEY want to learn about right now. learning to write out good criticisms to ideas is *learning* (even if the newer person doesn't learn a lot, the poster may). not making those ideas/criticisms explicit and exposing them and your understanding to criticism is a mistake.

mb add something to the group introduction about the critical nature of the group. and how it's idea-focused (not people-focused). so it's good to try to prioritize and not take stuff personally.

Anonymous at 7:34 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2805
gp, conceded

also how about some easily-accessible writing/advice on advice about common problems, such as prioritising which criticism to focus on, not taking it personally?

paths forward is good but it's also not obvious how to apply it, something more focused on practical stuff about FI might help



I think the problem needs to be more precise than "marketing, promoting and spreading Fallible Ideas" to produce some ideas that could make a serious go at solving it

how much help is worth giving? what is the target audience? is the goal to make it easily-accessible to everyone? if not, what set of people with what pre-existing knowledge are the target?

also what ideas would stop someone from engaging with FI? could people with those ideas be targeted? is it worth it? (I'm guessing not, but I think worth considering the angle)

Anonymous at 11:00 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2809
i don't think the target audience should be everyone and anyone.

>One cannot offer a literary masterpiece, “when one has become rich and famous,” to a following one has acquired by writing trash.

I don't think it's a good idea to dilute FI so that it's palatable to lots and lots of people. ya know?

>also what ideas would stop someone from engaging with FI?

I think many ppl dislike FI cuz it sends the message:

that their life strategy sucks. that they DO have lots of problems, which are hurting them (despite trying to deny this). that the problems they try to solve re: status/social role are mistakes. that they do have static memes (which they don't wanna question). that they are trying to protect their rational self-image vs truth seek.

FI makes it harder for them to evade this stuff. also, many ppl HATE the independence and confidence of Elliot (they tell themselves that it's arrogance). many ppl just can't stand him. he burdens them and they don't want that.

i don't know how to help ppl who want help *evading* or want help *stabilizing rationalizations*. or want help *pretending they are rational*.

at least not without diluting the message for the better people.

>also how about some easily-accessible writing/advice on advice about common problems, such as prioritising which criticism to focus on, not taking it personally?

ya, this might be a good idea. also, a person could ASK for advice about which things to focus on first if they are overwhelmed. and ya, mb if they know going in that the discussion is about *ideas* and *ideas* are going to be tossed around and analyzed and criticized a lot. but that doesn't mean that THEY (the person) has to be directly involved in that discussion, if they'd rather think about something else right now.

Anonymous at 11:41 AM on September 22, 2015 | #2810
>unschoolers are pretty terrible. unschoolers hate criticism and objective knowledge.

ya, they don't like to analyze ideas and learn. they don't try to improve their ideas (they admit this). they are not open minded. they appeal to authority.

rather than go for precise posts which address substance and details and arguments and quotes in an honest way. they like emotional and flowery posts, which they can call beautiful and feel warm and fuzzy about.

Anonymous at 12:42 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2811
> 2) recommendations (if any are given at all) often involve "read a book", which takes hours, people already have things they'd like to do for hours, they're not going to read a book because FI asserts that it will improve their life or help them get more involved in FI (this thing they're not sold on yet)

there is a big issue here. people literally don't know how to deal with things like books or even articles.

in short, read until you disagree with something or think you learned something. (and using some skimming skills to find key parts is needed with most material, though much less with the best material). then discuss. doesn't take hours.

you can keep reading if you love it and it's all going great, but if there's a problem then you stop and say the problem.

people don't know basic stuff about how to deal with reference material, how to use it productively.

Anonymous at 1:41 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2814
> An alternative FI-lite group:

splintering discussion is a problem.

who will join it?

how will it actually be run to make the goals of less criticism happen? how will the ethos be established?

if someone thinks this is a good idea, why don't you make it?


> Explain the value of referenced books better, be more specific about the gains of the books, maybe give quotes you think are particularly relevant to the issue being discussed

FI people ROUTINELY do provide relevant quotes on list.

Anonymous at 1:45 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2815
> i think reader should take the initiative to decide crits to work on first. The posts which are written are not *solely* for that one reader. There are lots of other readers and learners which also learn from those posts. Only criticizing on thing at a time would lead to lots less discussion and learning for everyone else. It's the reader's job to make it individualized for them, not the poster's.


giving people more options for which criticisms to choose from to work on is objectively better in general. Bob knows better than Elliot which of Elliot's criticisms Bob would like to work on at this time.

but yes Bob doesn't actually know how to do basic discussion skills like not reply to everything but also not block progress. and how to stand up for himself and self-direct his learning.

the basic solution has to be people taking responsibility for their own learning though. if they don't, no amount of manipulation-type things (such as withholding some criticisms and trying to generally control their experience from the outside) is ever going to make it work.

Anonymous at 1:47 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2816
What about a YouTube video about paths forward?

Anonymous at 1:49 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2817
> mb add something to the group introduction about the critical nature of the group. and how it's idea-focused (not people-focused). so it's good to try to prioritize and not take stuff personally.


this is a fine idea, except, what should it say? there have been many attempts to write intro type stuff. there is so much to say, all at once, at the start. it's really hard to figure out what to prioritize, and how to present it for a general audience.

definitely room for improvement here. it's important.

i've already been working on this, largely alone, for years.

Elliot Temple at 1:50 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2818
if other people want to help with stuff like introducing FI, what i think they should do is write intros themselves and comment on my material. actually help make progress in the field.


> What about a YouTube video about paths forward?

are suggestions like this implicitly meaning "made by Elliot" or do they mean made by anyone?

cuz if made by anyone, GREAT, SURE, GO AHEAD.

if made by me: so, if i had a great idea for the script, i'd make it. i'm already working on figuring out how to explain paths forward to people. it reads to me a bit like "well, explain it to them better and in more formats" which is like, sure that'd be nice, but what'd really help is ideas about the topic, like if someone wrote part of a video script with some ideas, maybe i could use something from it or find it helpful.

Elliot Temple at 1:52 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2819
> how much help is worth giving? what is the target audience? is the goal to make it easily-accessible to everyone? if not, what set of people with what pre-existing knowledge are the target?


this is a big problem. Objectivism and unschoolers are two examples of RATHER BAD communities. but where's the better ones? i basically don't think there are very good, promising pre-existing communities. i don't think there exist much in the way of better communities than Objectivism, which is a place where it IS possible to find some pretty decent individuals sometimes (much easier than if you just talk to randomly selected Americans), but overall it's really quite bad and dismal.

the current FI community is basically people recruited one at a time from no where in particular. lots of them came to FI themselves via seeking information themselves.

Anonymous at 1:55 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2820
> I don't think it's a good idea to dilute FI so that it's palatable to lots and lots of people. ya know?

right, FI is purer than Oism, will be MORE offensive.

there have been a lot of claims blaming communication style, blaming how Elliot communicates, blaming criticism, blaming meta discussion, blaming being impolite, blaming being informal (e.g. complaints about not capitalizing first words of sentences). lots of stuff.

but fundamentally, BY FAR, the most offensive stuff is the content itself, and usually when people get offended the main thing going on is COMMUNICATION ACTUALLY WORKED. it's usually when you actually SUCCEED and get some point across that they react the worst.

Anonymous at 1:57 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2821
and mb not just content of what is said, but also how others interpret you as a person. many ppl hate independence and confidence. THAT is very offensive to them. it's not just about the *content* of what is being said. it's largely about the speaker, too.

Anonymous at 2:16 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2823
yeah like some ppl on OO openly, explicitly hated me for thinking i was right and being who i am and not being shaken by an irrational mob disagreeing with my sense of life.

and i think for everyone who says something about that, dozens more think or feel something along those lines a bit. the problem must be way way more common than ppl expressing it with any kind of clarity.

it's kinda like peter keating being offended by roark.




Keating had come here prepared to exercise caution and tact to the limit of his ability; he had achieved a purpose he had not expected to achieve; he knew he should take no chances, say nothing else and leave. But something inexplicable, beyond all practical considerations, was pushing him on. He said unheedingly:
“Can’t you be human for once in your life?”
“What?”
“Human! Simple. Natural.”
“But I am.”
“Can’t you ever relax?”
Roark smiled, because he was sitting on the window sill, leaning sloppily against the wall, his long legs hanging loosely, the cigarette held without pressure between limp fingers.
“That’s not what I mean!” said Keating. “Why can’t you go out for a drink with me?”
“What for?”
“Do you always have to have a purpose? Do you always have to be so damn serious? Can’t you ever do things without reason, just like everybody else? You’re so serious, so old. Everything’s important with you, everything’s great, significant in some way, every minute, even when you keep still. Can’t you ever be comfortable—and unimportant?”
“No.”
“Don’t you get tired of the heroic?”
“What’s heroic about me?”
“Nothing. Everything. I don’t know. It’s not what you do. It’s what you make people feel around you.”
“What?”
“The un-normal. The strain. When I’m with you—it’s always like a choice. Between you—and the rest of the world. I don’t want that kind of a choice. I don’t want to be an outsider. I want to belong. There’s so much in the world that’s simple and pleasant. It’s not all fighting and renunciation. It is—with you.”
“What have I ever renounced?”
“Oh, you’ll never renounce anything! You’d walk over corpses for what you want. But it’s what you’ve renounced by never wanting it.”
“That’s because you can’t want both.”
“Both what?”
“Look, Peter. I’ve never told you any of those things about me. What makes you see them? I’ve never asked you to make a choice between me and anything else. What makes you feel that there is a choice involved? What makes you uncomfortable when you feel that—since you’re so sure I’m wrong?”
“I ... I don’t know.” He added: “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” And then he asked suddenly:
“Howard, why do you hate me?”
“I don’t hate you.”
“Well, that’s it! Why don’t you hate me at least?”
“Why should I?”
“Just to give me something. I know you can’t like me. You can’t like anybody. So it would be kinder to acknowledge people’s existence by hating them.”
“I’m not kind, Peter.”

Elliot Temple at 2:31 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2824
>yeah like some ppl on OO openly, explicitly hated me for thinking i was right and being who i am and not being shaken by an irrational mob disagreeing with my sense of life.

ya. i think with stuff like CONTENT or someone's SENSE OF LIFE which strongly contradicts a person's own ideas

Erin at 2:33 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2825
oops - sent too soon

Anonymous at 2:34 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2827
> Gamification!
>
> Like Kahn Academy and most computer games now.
>
> FUCK THAT. can't appease their retarded side to teach FI

It could result in the best people turning away from FI because of the stupid gamification

Anonymous at 2:37 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2828
> It could result in the best people turning away from FI because of the stupid gamification

Yeah. Do you think gamification would impress Szasz or Reisman, say? Would gamification have impressed Elliot or Alan or DD?

Anonymous at 2:39 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2829
> and mb not just content of what is said, but also how others interpret you as a person. many ppl hate independence and confidence. THAT is very offensive to them. it's not just about the *content* of what is being said. it's largely about the speaker, too.

is that why people respond "high and mighty" to someone who claims to know that some action is right or wrong? they are offended that somebody is claiming to have knowledge of a moral issue?

so, they are scared and unconfident about their moral ideas and they don't understand how someone else could be confident.

Anonymous at 2:42 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2830
> Yeah. Do you think gamification would impress Szasz or Reisman, say? Would gamification have impressed Elliot or Alan or DD?

it's about status instead of truth. truth-seekers avoid status like oil avoids water.

Anonymous at 2:46 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2831
>yeah like some ppl on OO openly, explicitly hated me for thinking i was right and being who i am and not being shaken by an irrational mob disagreeing with my sense of life.

ya. i think with stuff like some CONTENT or a person's SENSE OF LIFE which *strongly* contradicts someone else's:

life strategies, choices, fundamental ideas which they don't want to question, aim of wanting to convince themselves that they have a good life and not many problems, aim to convince themselves that the stuff they claim is impossible actually IS impossible

when this sorta conflict happens and when they read content or ways of existing which make them question this sorta fundamental stuff, they would get much more offended than if the issue was impoliteness.

like it's one thing to deviate by breaking some social rules about being polite, it's another to actually make ppl look in the mirror and question some of their fundamental ideas. (Rand reference there). ppl HARSHLY want to punish that sort of deviance.

so ya, huge uproars and wanting to attack and hurt someone don't happen just for style reasons.

EM at 2:50 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2833
> aim to convince themselves that the stuff they claim is impossible actually IS impossible

i think this is important. and it reminds me of how people react to Mises and liberalism (and Rand). you can quote them stuff about the harmony of men's rational interests, and there aren't any conflicts of interest among rational me. you can tell them about how we can have peace and people need not fight. you can tell them about TCS and how coercion and suffering are unnecessary.

and then they just get mad and reject it out of hand and won't think about it. they don't go "wow that's the most wonderful thing i've ever heard. it sounds false, but if there's even the slightest chance, i've got to investigate. and there are a bunch of books on it by authors that a bunch of people think are amazing, so that does qualify for the slightest chance"

Anonymous at 3:06 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2834
> like it's one thing to deviate by breaking some social rules about being polite, it's another to actually make ppl look in the mirror and question some of their fundamental ideas. (Rand reference there).

what reference? quote plz

Anonymous at 3:07 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2835
>All the witnesses have told the truth. But not the whole truth. I am merely filling in the omissions. They spoke of a threat and of hatred. They were right. The Stoddard Temple is a threat to many things. If it were allowed to exist, nobody would dare to look at himself in the mirror. And that is a cruel thing to do to men. Ask anything of men. Ask them to achieve wealth, fame, love, brutality, murder, self-sacrifice. But don't ask them to achieve self-respect. They will hate your soul. Well, they know best. They must have their reasons. They won't say, of course, that they hate you. They will say that you hate them. It's near enough, I suppose. They know the emotion involved. Such are men as they are. So what is the use of being a martyr to the impossible? What is the use of building for a world that does not exist?


similar to the Stoddard Temple, ideas like TCS or Objectivism. or people like Rand or Elliot can elicit this hatred. Cuz like Rand says here, it's a cruel thing to ask man to look at himself in the mirror and actually honestly question some of his fundamental ideas about who he is and what ideas he has chosen to believe.

It's threatening to them to even consider alternative ideas like TCS or Oism as *actual* possibilities.

EM at 4:38 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2837
> What is kinder—to believe the best of people and burden them with a nobility beyond their endurance—or to see them as they are, and accept it because it makes them comfortable? Kindness being more important than justice, of course.

Anonymous at 4:43 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2838
> They won't say, of course, that they hate you. They will say that you hate them.

Oh man, people totally do that with me, and I hadn't connected it with that quote. good point

Elliot Temple at 5:14 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2840
> unschoolers are pretty terrible. unschoolers hate criticism and objective knowledge.

that's true, I don't understand this. i thought at first they misunderstood critcism for bullying, so fair enough. and i understand criticism being uncomfortable when one has static memes/ emotions etc. but after being explained its epistemological meaning they still go like "fuck that"

> i think one of the problems with the old TCS list is that it attracted unschooler type people. they superficially seem close to TCS in some ways, and they THINK they are closer to TCS than other parents. but they are worse in a lot of ways. in the ways that actually matter for learning philosophy.

i think it was more the AP ppl, of which i was one. lol

it seems leftist ppl tend to care more not to hurt their children than the conservative/ right wing types?

i don't understand being leftist i liked it and other ppl not?

> is it just because they have children? if that is it, why not go after other parents instead?

what other parents would be good?

Anonymous at 5:36 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2841
> people don't know basic stuff about how to deal with reference material, how to use it productively.

start a post about this?

Anonymous at 5:42 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2842
> Parents are easily offended by real life discussions but in the context of a comic, they might tolerate certain things and learn from certain things.

Lots of parents are evil. If you're trying to promote good ideas and not offending evil people, you're doing it wrong and wasting time.

Anonymous at 5:48 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2844
> this is a big problem. Objectivism and unschoolers are two examples of RATHER BAD communities.

is this because of a "so close, yet so far away" situation?

Anonymous at 5:48 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2845
no, i think other communities are even worse than Objectivism.

Anonymous at 5:51 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2846
>> It could result in the best people turning away from FI because of the stupid gamification
>
> Yeah. Do you think gamification would impress Szasz or Reisman, say? Would gamification have impressed Elliot or Alan or DD?

gamification would have been a terrible idea because it's giving a game a purpose outside the game and FI list a reward outside the list.

the same i think "ungaming" games to make them "educational" is terrible.

like once someone on a Myst group was commenting on some teacher who used Myst games on a language class to help kids learn metaphor or whatever. and he said "oh, i wish my teacher had used Myst games in school". but he said that because he liked the games as games. having games spoiled with lessons and educational projects is horrific. totally spoils the gaming. same as homeschool minecraft. wtf is that.

Anonymous at 5:52 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2847
>> similar to the Stoddard Temple, ideas like TCS or Objectivism. or people like Rand or Elliot can elicit this hatred. Cuz like Rand says here, it's a cruel thing to ask man to look at himself in the mirror and actually honestly question some of his fundamental ideas about who he is and what ideas he has chosen to believe.
>
> It's threatening to them to even consider alternative ideas like TCS or Oism as *actual* possibilities.

thinking in the case of unschoolers, is it really this or just that they get scared off by the political ideas? i was. but still like the idea of raising kids without doing things against their will. it's how i would have liked to be raised.

Anonymous at 5:56 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2848
i remember i enjoyed playing Oregon Trail at school. didn't seem ruined.

Anonymous at 5:56 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2849
and i liked the educational games Number Munchers and Mario Teaches Typing which i played at home.

Anonymous at 5:58 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2850
>> Parents are easily offended by real life discussions but in the context of a comic, they might tolerate certain things and learn from certain things.
>
> Lots of parents are evil. If you're trying to promote good ideas and not offending evil people, you're doing it wrong and wasting time.

if they are not being directly criticized, they will not be offended.

Anonymous at 6:00 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2851
if someone is scared off by the political ideas (which are connected to the other ideas in lots of ways, and come from the same underlying type of thinking and way of approaching ideas), then i think that shows they are closed minded.

"i heard Republicans are evil 500 times. i heard something right wing on FI list. therefore fuck FI". if they think like that, i'm deeply skeptical they were going to be much good on other issues

Anonymous at 6:01 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2852
> if they are not being directly criticized, they will not be offended.

i think this is factually false. why do you believe this?

Anonymous at 6:02 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2853
>People want results. They want achievements.
You could add an achievements system and give them a gold dollar for each achievement they reach.
Like:
"Achievement: Your first post!"
"Achievement: You used correct quote formatting!"
"Achievement: You realised you're lying to yourself!"
"Achievement: You changed your mind!"



They DON'T want achievement according to their own judgment and values, like a Roark would.

People like that gamification stuff cuz it’s like external validation rather than them having to pick their own values and goals for something, and judge accomplishment-worthiness for themselves. So appeasing that desire via gamification is kinda like partially-automating second-handedness.

Anonymous at 6:02 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2854
> and i liked the educational games Number Munchers and Mario Teaches Typing which i played at home.

those games were designed to teach something specific from scratch so probably were well designed.

the makers of Myst started with edutainment btw.

but the purpose of Myst is not to learn how to write English.

i guess the prob is... the child's purpose vs the teacher or parent purpose. the kid wants to do his own stuff on minecraft, the parent wants him to learn maths using his love of minecraft... etc.

Anonymous at 6:03 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2855
>> if they are not being directly criticized, they will not be offended.
>
> i think this is factually false. why do you believe this?

they have no reason to take it personally.

(i was going to explain more about the effect of characters and stories on ppl but need to think about it more)

Anonymous at 6:03 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2856
> if someone is scared off by the political ideas (which are connected to the other ideas in lots of ways, and come from the same underlying type of thinking and way of approaching ideas), then i think that shows they are closed minded.

i'm scared but didn't put me off.

Anonymous at 6:05 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2857
> but the purpose of Myst is not to learn how to write English.

wtf? i haven't played Myst much but i don't think it even has very many words in it. really picture based. using it for learning English writing seems super bizarre. (what would most make sense to me is just like to write stories in that universe, i guess. Myst fanfics. but i don't get the sense that's what you're talking about.)


> i guess the prob is... the child's purpose vs the teacher or parent purpose. the kid wants to do his own stuff on minecraft, the parent wants him to learn maths using his love of minecraft... etc.

i think my sister played Number Munchers little or none, and i don't think my parents had a problem with that. i think this is evidence i played it because i wanted to and liked it, rather than my parents have an agenda that i needed to learn that material. (this also seems plausible given my other interests and activities). (trying to work things out here despite hazy memory). i can easily see it being a really horrible thing for someone pressured to play it.

Anonymous at 6:07 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2858
>> but the purpose of Myst is not to learn how to write English.
>
> wtf? i haven't played Myst much but i don't think it even has very many words in it. really picture based. using it for learning English writing seems super bizarre. (what would most make sense to me is just like to write stories in that universe, i guess. Myst fanfics. but i don't get the sense that's what you're talking about.)

i think the task was for kids to describe the images using metaphors. it's an old news piece but i'll see if i can still look for it.

> i think my sister played Number Munchers little or none, and i don't think my parents had a problem with that. i think this is evidence i played it because i wanted to and liked it, rather than my parents have an agenda that i needed to learn that material. (this also seems plausible given my other interests and activities). (trying to work things out here despite hazy memory). i can easily see it being a really horrible thing for someone pressured to play it.

yeah. you got lucky with your parents. :P

Anonymous at 6:10 PM on September 22, 2015 | #2859

someone tried to post this and got a software bug

>They DON'T want achievement according to their own judgment and values, like a Roark would.
>
>People like that gamification stuff cuz it’s like external validation rather than them having to pick their own values and goals for something, and judge accomplishment-worthiness for themselves. So appeasing that desire via gamification is kinda like partially-automating second-handedness.

How can people who live second-hand learn not to, without taking on "not being second hand" second-handedly?

I don't think most people will even admit to themselves that they do it.

There's an important distinction here. The difference between living second hand, and seeking criticism and learning from it. They can both superficially seem the same.

So eg A sees this:
B believes x
C believes y
B talks to C
B believes y

and can't tell the difference between B having been persuaded of y by C, and having accepted the opinion uncritically because they respect C/want C to like them/think they should do what C does/whatever

so they look at terrible places like OO where people are just copying each other blindly, and places like FI where people are actually learning from each other, and can't tell the difference

so they go to the one where they get validation and never learn

Anonymous at 2:25 PM on September 23, 2015 | #2930
another way to put it is people hate me for holding frame despite their social pressure

Elliot Temple at 11:16 PM on September 25, 2015 | #3289
what does "holding frame" mean?

Anonymous at 5:33 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3295
>what does "holding frame" mean?

This concept comes from a semi psychopathic view of the world whereby everyone is constantly trying to force their view of reality or the given social context on you and you need to resist that by "holding to your own frame of the situation".

What Elliot doesn't get is that he is one of the few people who tries to force his own view of things on people irrationally.

These people tell themselves women constantly do this with men. Horrible.

Anonymous at 9:44 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3296
So much projection on this page. All FI does is copy each other blindly.

Anonymous at 9:50 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3297
The deification of Elliot by certain people is not learning. If he took his head out of his ass for a second he'd see that OO disagrees on huge ranges of issues, and actually engaged in argument.

Anonymous at 9:51 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3298
Love how obsessed his is with OO though. The butthurt is glorious.

Anonymous at 9:52 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3299
Elliot basically admits - by "holding frame" - that he resists things irrationally rather than listening to the argument. He never engages in abstract criticism of his own ideas beyond question-begging.

He also never engages with people that point this stuff out.

Anonymous at 9:57 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3300
in this moment elliot is euphoric

Anonymous at 10:15 AM on September 26, 2015 | #3301
> Love how obsessed his is with OO though. The butthurt is glorious.

Where did this obsession come from? I mean, how did Elliot even get wind of OO?

Anonymous at 1:30 PM on September 26, 2015 | #3303
>Where did this obsession come from? I mean, how did Elliot even get wind of OO?

Lulie

Anonymous at 3:02 PM on September 26, 2015 | #3305
It was "accidental".

Anonymous at 3:51 PM on September 26, 2015 | #3306
> what does "holding frame" mean?

not losing your perspective on life due to social pressure. not getting affected by other people's reality distortion fields.

Anonymous at 8:35 PM on September 29, 2015 | #3371
That sounds retarded.

How about "not getting drawn into other peoples' self-delusion"?

But also isn't part of it not losing your goals in exchange for theirs/being second-handed?

That's not the same thing - them wanting things and going for those things isn't a distortion of reality or a delusion.

Anonymous at 10:19 AM on October 4, 2015 | #3396
> So much projection on this page. All FI does is copy each other blindly.

How is that even possible?

Like, if 2 people are interacting with each other, and since they have some disagreements, how can BOTH of them copy the other blindly? Wouldn't that mean switching positions to the other guy?

So, like person A and person B have a disagreement. Person A has position 1 and person B has position 2.

Now person A blindly copies person B and person B blindly copies person A. So now person A has position 2 and person B has position 1.

Did you even think about what you said? I don't think so.

Anonymous at 3:38 PM on October 4, 2015 | #3405
>Open Thread: Promoting and Spreading Fallible Ideas
from atop ivory towers, throwing insults and unsearchable terminology back at each other. nice

Anonymous at 6:47 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5973
if you have a criticism of an idea, share it. if not, what are you trying to say?

Anonymous at 6:57 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5974
uh, what is the story here? what is OO?

Anonymous at 7:15 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5975
OO is Open Oxford, a facebook group (with some IRL socializing) that purports to have something to do with free speech but actually bans people for e.g. being an Objectivist. they also dox people.

Anonymous at 7:25 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5976
link? is it even open to the public or is that some other kind of 'open'?

why are they so fucking hostile in short bursts?

Anonymous at 7:30 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5977
what short bursts? OO people harassed me for one time period and then left. there was not stop and restart.

you can search "open oxford" on facebook. they actually made the group closed and then got mad at people who quoted things from it (cuz free speech! or maybe it was cuz fear [1]). there's some spinoff groups now too, most of which are also closed groups. but they mostly are closed in name only – when you let in any random stranger from the public who tries to join then the content is public.

[1] http://curi.us/1784-fear-of-future-employers

curi at 7:33 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5978
>what short bursts? OO people harassed me for one time period and then left. there was not stop and restart.

well, i see nasty comments in this thread and in http://curi.us/1785-fallible-ideas-unformatted. was this all one event or two unrelated things?

>you can search "open oxford" on facebook

ah. i was interested in reading but not enough to make an account on there. thanks for quick reply.

Anonymous at 7:39 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5979
it was some angry haters coming here for one time period and commenting in more than one thread.

i don't recommend reading OO stuff except on my blog e.g. http://curi.us/1783-free-speech-takes-thought-and-effort and http://curi.us/1791-standards

curi at 7:42 PM on June 21, 2016 | #5980

What do you think?

(This is a free speech zone!)