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Second-handedness Examples

For He's A Jolly Good Fellow Lyrics

For he's a jolly good fellow [...] which nobody can deny

Phrasing it in terms of what other people can deny is second-handed. It views the world in terms of other people's opinions instead of truth.

Please post dozens examples of second-handedness in the comments below. It'll help you be a better person.

Elliot Temple on January 5, 2020

Messages (40)


> If Elliot could get a single paper published to a peer reviewed journal I'd be hella surprised. If his paper would get cited more than once then maybe you could call him a philosopher.

This is a second-handed comment. It judges by the opinions of others (in terms of what they cite) instead of the truth of the matter or the arguments.

Anonymous at 12:51 PM on January 6, 2020 | #15034 | reply | quote

#15034 You have no idea how peer reviewed journals work do you.

Anonymous at 5:10 PM on January 6, 2020 | #15036 | reply | quote

#15036 Peer review involves peers, scientists or philosophers who the journal judges are capable of judging work in that field, reading and commenting on a paper. So judging by peer review rather than by the content of a paper is judging by whether those peers agreed with the paper, which is second handed. The peer review system can help improve papers but surviving peer review doesn't imply that a paper is good.

oh my god it's turpentine at 12:25 AM on January 7, 2020 | #15038 | reply | quote

#15036 Inn addition, the comment to which you replied doesn't mention peer review so you can't judge the commenters knowledge of that topic by its content.

oh my god it's turpentine at 12:26 AM on January 7, 2020 | #15039 | reply | quote

I got flamed on Discord by Shadow Starshine because he thinks I'm not second-handed, which he thinks is bad:

> Curi strikes me as someone who everyone in the world could disagree with and he'd still think he was right

Yeah I judge by arguments about the issues, not by other people's opinions and how popular and high social status those opinions are.

curi at 2:57 PM on January 7, 2020 | #15045 | reply | quote

#15045 He was talking about communication you buffoon.

If you could make 0 progress communicating with everyone, you'd still blame it on others (which you do). This has nothing to do with "second-handedness" (which is a retarded idea on its own, we stand on the shoulders of giant) and everything to do with the fact that you're an emotionally stunted control freak. You behave like a neglected 5 year old who never grew up.

You blame others for your failures.

In reality, the blame is entirely on you because you can't explain yourself and you lost every single debate you had with SS, Kate, PP, TheRat and VSE. You are simply inadequate as a philosopher.

Rand would be dissapointed at 8:37 AM on January 8, 2020 | #15046 | reply | quote

Stick to programming Curi

Anonymous at 8:38 AM on January 8, 2020 | #15047 | reply | quote

oh, and you also lost to AY.

Anonymous at 8:42 AM on January 8, 2020 | #15048 | reply | quote

> Critical Rationalist: It is too bad. I heard from people who were glad I had joined this group.

It's second-handed to think it's too bad he's leaving a group because other people said they were glad he joined.

> Critical Rationalist: Some people define it as a gene.

His irrational evasion to triple down on a factual error was phrased in terms of what other people think and do.

curi at 4:27 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15054 | reply | quote

Shit Tier Blogger at 5:00 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15056 | reply | quote

> STB: He's an embarrassment :frowning:

Ambiguous whether "he" refers to Trump or Obama (bad thinkers have so much trouble communicating in basic ways), and viewing it in terms of embarrassment is second-handed.

curi at 5:15 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15057 | reply | quote

#15056 Caring about who gets what recognition is second-handed, as is thinking that people's unargued negative opinions are important. Good example.

Anonymous at 5:21 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15058 | reply | quote


> In reality, the blame is entirely on you because you can't explain yourself and you lost every single debate you had with SS, Kate, PP, TheRat and VSE. You are simply inadequate as a philosopher.

(assertion masterman)

πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€” at 5:40 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15059 | reply | quote

oops, last comment should link to #15046

πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€”πŸ€” at 5:41 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15060 | reply | quote

#15056 LMAO I am dying. At the post and at the title that Temple has acquired.

"Shit Tier Blogger" It is perfect.

Dying at 5:54 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15061 | reply | quote

#15061 Thinking in terms of who calls other people by what titles is second-handed. He's talking about someone acquiring a particular reputation. Titles are from the social status hierarchy like prince, king, duke.

Anonymous at 5:58 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15062 | reply | quote

#15062 Nobody gives a fuck what you think.

Elliot "Shit Tier Blogger" Temple is too god damn perfect.

And I don't even think ET is all bad either, the shit he plagiarizes from Deutsch is ofc going to be good. But god damn is he a terrible writer lmao.

Perfect at 6:06 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15063 | reply | quote

> Nobody gives a fuck what you think.

Notice the comment in terms of what other people's opinions are. More second-handedness. They can't turn it off well enough to briefly hide it to stop providing examples.

Anonymous at 6:09 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15064 | reply | quote

Sorry Shit Tier Blogger, you are not shaking that nick any time soon. You'd have to stop being a shit tier blogger. :P

Anonymous at 6:14 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15065 | reply | quote

Shaking (getting rid of) nicknames is a social, not logical-rational, activity. Success is related to other people's opinions about what constitutes a valid shaking. Another second-handed comment.

Anonymous at 6:15 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15066 | reply | quote

W/e you say Shit Tier Blogger :)

Anonymous at 6:19 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15067 | reply | quote

> W/e you say Shit Tier Blogger :)

Notice how he replies in terms of *who* said things as his way of evaluating them. That's also second-handed. He's (after factoring out the sarcasm) stating that he's rejecting an idea due to the source and the source's (negative) reputation (as represented by a negative nickname that he regards as socially legitimate).

Anonymous at 6:21 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15068 | reply | quote

You keep telling yourself that Shit Tier Blogger. :)

Anonymous at 6:33 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15069 | reply | quote

I mean if you had to bet on who has been the biggest embarrassment to the presidency it has to be the orange turd.

Anonymous at 6:47 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15070 | reply | quote

> embarrassment

Social, second-handed claim re what people's opinions of Trump are, and trying to evaluate a presidency by those opinions instead of by actions, accomplishments, policies, etc.

Anonymous at 6:51 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15071 | reply | quote

exactly, he's an embarrassment.

Anonymous at 6:55 PM on January 9, 2020 | #15072 | reply | quote


How do people get fooled into doing Sacha Baron Cohen interviews where they make fools of themselves? They're second-handed:

> β€œThey said, β€˜we’re doing a feature for Showtime β€” the top 20 people in the United States.’ It looked pretty nice [that] I made the top people.”


> Arpaio was convinced his interviewer was immensely popular in Finland.

How did he make a fool of himself? E.g.:

> Cohen's character - who revealed he bought 43 guns in preparation for the β€œupcoming race war” - was told by Arpaio that Trump would be a fan of his ideas.


> [Arpaio said] he'd accept oral sex from Donald Trump.

curi at 12:41 AM on January 10, 2020 | #15073 | reply | quote



Arpaio's career was built to a large extent on attempts to exploit second-handedness in others. He got played by a variant of the same game he spent his career running.

Arpaio's main innovation, which got him most of his fame, was in how he ran the county jail and especially the "tent city" he created for prisoners. He recognized, correctly IMO, that one of the problems in his county was criminals for whom going to jail was nbd, just part of the lifestyle and even in some circles an initiation badge of honor (cuz going to jail means you didn't flip and testify against somebody bigger in return for immunity).

So Arpaio did things primarily designed to lower the social status of criminals in jail. He made them wear pink clothing, including underwear. He made a big deal out of feeding them lower quality food than his dogs. He made them live outside in uncomfortably hot, dusty weather which made them perpetually dirty and stinky.

Part of this was an attempt to inflict direct suffering on the prisoners - which of course it did. But the main game he was playing was trying to lower prisoners' social status, make them feel bad about being in jail for second-handed reasons and make other second-handed people want to avoid jail more.

I don't know if Arpaio's jail policies were actually effective in deterring criminal behavior. I haven't looked into it and wouldn't trust media reports either way.

Andy Dufresne at 8:02 AM on January 10, 2020 | #15074 | reply | quote

Seen on facebook:

> [local] Library is hosting a demo of this very popular dice game

We are supposed to want to play the dice game because it's popular, not because it's a good game.

Anne B at 11:54 AM on January 10, 2020 | #15075 | reply | quote

#15075 Or they are mentioning that they are hosting a game a lot of people like. There is no implication that you should *want* to play the game for that reason.

Btw pointing out appeals to popularity in everyday life, a good philosopher it doesn't make.

Anonymous at 8:00 AM on January 12, 2020 | #15079 | reply | quote


Now I disagree both with what I originally wrote and with what you wrote about why they used the word "popular".

I think there *is* an implication that you should want to play the game because it's popular. They wouldn't put in the word "popular" for no reason. But maybe they just mean that since lots of other people like the game, it might be a good game, so you might like it too. I don't think they're trying to get people to play the game so that the *people* will be popular or something, which would be second-handed.

So I retract what I said in #15075.

> Btw pointing out appeals to popularity in everyday life, a good philosopher it doesn't make.

I do think it's important to learn about how our values are influenced by the social world we live in. That's part of philosophy.

As to whether it's part of *good* philosophy, I don't think I know enough to say that. But it seems like a good thing for me to examine. I want to be more aware of how I am influenced by wanting other people to think well of me.

Anne B at 7:31 AM on January 13, 2020 | #15080 | reply | quote

#15080 The attention given to other people's opinions is second-handed, and people do try to conform to what's popular because it's popular, partly in order to be more popular.

Anonymous at 12:16 PM on January 13, 2020 | #15081 | reply | quote

thread title is "Spent more that $200 on brunch today"

> Dating a girl who likes to order several different things at the same time. I don't even order because I just eat whatever she can't and there's still tons of food left over. A lot of times we'll offer some appetizers and entrees to the people sitting around us. She'll spend at least 15 minutes arranging everything just so before she starts taking pictures. The whole thing lasts several hours including eating.


Anonymous at 3:36 PM on January 18, 2020 | #15145 | reply | quote

From an ad I got by snail mail:

[transcribed, so there may be errors]

> Special Invitation

> You are cordially invited to an Educational Evening to learn how to Navigate Retirement at the prestigious [name of local fancy place] Country Club.

The financial services company is saying that the location they rented for their sales pitch is considered prestigious by other people. That's supposed to get potential clients to want to come to the sales pitch, so they can be associated with something that other people consider prestigious.

Anne B at 4:22 PM on January 19, 2020 | #15162 | reply | quote

Second-hand ad. Use it because prestigious people are using it to stay ahead of other people. And it's bragging about how smart it is, and how it'll help you be smart – this is a company allegedly with literature, reading and writing expertise (they do book summaries) – but they don't know how commas work.

curi at 12:52 AM on January 22, 2020 | #15193 | reply | quote

FH quote from the Stoddard Temple trial:

> The crowd would have forgiven anything, except a man who could remain normal under the vibrations of its enormous collective sneer. Some of them had come prepared to pity him; all of them hated him after the first few minutes.

Anonymous at 1:39 PM on February 11, 2020 | #15448 | reply | quote


13min he he basically says they are trying to get ppl elected to minor offices to gain social status the public will listen to what's said based on the source instead of the content of the message. despite being way behind in it, they're trying to play (and therefore sanctioning and legitimizing) the standard social climber game, b/c they think they should second-handedly pander to what the general not-that-interested public wants even though they don't respect the opinions of those they pander to. and what does that public want? the speaker says the public wants to be impressed by the title of the person telling them something, not by understanding the message. so it's a chain of second-handed pandering to second-handers, and it helps the establishment and it has nothing to do with ideas (ideas being where libertarians like the speaker in the video claim to have an edge).

Anonymous at 9:43 PM on February 21, 2020 | #15585 | reply | quote

I went out today to do an errand. I was deciding which coat to wear. I thought to myself, β€œI’ll be cold if I wear a light coat. But if I wear a winter coat on a nice day like this, people will think I’m an old fuddy-duddy.” Then I realized that the reason not to wear the winter coat was silly and second-handed, and I wore the winter coat.

Anne B at 7:11 AM on March 4, 2020 | #15740 | reply | quote


That's stucchio's wife. They are into the social climbing of getting attention from a high status person who had nothing to say about it.

The reaction is not like "This publicity will help with goals X and Y that I have." It's heart eyes, being flushed and screaming.

Anonymous at 5:01 PM on March 4, 2020 | #15747 | reply | quote

*The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History* by John M. Barry:

> The profession had grown large enough for maneuvering within it. If one listened closely, one could hear: β€œThe appointment of Dr. Opie as the primary key man in this plan would be a fatal mistake.” Or, β€œJordan seems at first a rather dazzling possibility, but I am a little afraid…that he is not a man who can be absolutely certain to stand up for his convictions in a tight place.” Or, β€œOf the names you suggest, I would distinctly prefer Emerson but I fear he would be particularly unacceptable to Russell and Cole, and perhaps to the [Rockefeller] Foundation group in general, as I have the impression that he has been somewhat at outs with them.”

curi at 11:56 AM on March 17, 2020 | #16008 | reply | quote

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