[Previous] Ending Aging | Home | [Next] Use The Comments!

Gaming Discussion

Topic to discuss computer/video/electronic game stuff, including esports and speedrunning.


Elliot Temple on February 20, 2020

Messages (29)

https://youtu.be/-Wqsuzt3e64?t=104

This video mentions (at 1:44) that Activision has a patent on an algorithm idea where you bias the in-game matchmaking to try to get people to spend money. For example, if someone plays as a sniper a lot, you intentionally match them against a guy with a pay-to-win sniper rifle so they lose the sniper duel. Then the game also tells them the gear of the guy who beat them, and they are encouraged to buy it to stop losing.


curi at 1:54 PM on February 20, 2020 | #15561 | reply | quote

Casual and Mobile Gamers are Helping RUIN GAMES Casual gaming is immoral. TV has a similar divide. There is casual or "couch potato" or "zombie" style TV watching, as well as thoughtful TV watching where one learns something (btw very young children, often accused of being the most mindless TV watchers, are, on average, some of the least mindless viewers). Same with watching YouTube or any other activity which can be done in a lazy way but doesn't have to be.

The divide is basically whether you're learning or not learning; making progress or not making progress; improving or not improving.

The video criticizes people who want instant gratification. TCS people may be aware that "instant gratification" is used to attack children, often falsely. But it also has some legitimate meaning. Wanting rewards without doing problem solving or learning first, without earning them, is mostly bad. (It's OK if you occasionally want to e.g. have your friend beat something for you so you can get a reward. The occasional shortcut to skip specific challenges you don't like is fine. But that should be uncommon. If it were common, that means you don't like the challenges in that game or area of life, so you should be doing something else!)

Casual Gamers Versus Hardcore Gamers - An Invasive Species More of the same topic. Well worth watching IMO. If you're a casual gamer (or TV watcher or book reader) you should find out and change in order to dramatically improve your life. It's very common so, if you aren't familiar with the topic, it might apply to you.

Mobile gaming now sells more than PC+console combined, and it's far more casual, and the whole gaming industry is catering more and more to casuals and ruining games for the people who like a challenge and, in the past, were the earlier adopters who made up most of the gaming market.

Related:

http://curi.us/2189-open-discussion-2019#13911

> Asmongold criticizes casual console gamers who buy cosmetics:

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vp4H0eVZjk


curi at 8:04 PM on February 20, 2020 | #15573 | reply | quote

Watched the Casual vs. Hardcore Gamer Video

Watched the Casual v. Hardcore gamer video and found it interesting. I like that it's really about a willingness to learn and make incremental improvements. In the old discord discussion about League of Legends where you pointed out that you think most people don't learn after their childhood, I was thinking about how I got into DotA 2 and what it was that felt so fulfilling about studying the game.

I initially got into it because I had read some stuff about deliberate practice and I wondered if I could apply that to learning a game. DotA 2 was the most daunting, complex game I knew about at the time so I figured why not use it to test these ideas and methods?

I learnt quickly at first and joined some groups that organized inhouse leagues and tournaments. At first I was accused of being a smurf (a skilled player posing as an unskilled, new player) but they quickly realized I wasn't lying as they heard me communicate and ask questions during games.

One thing I really liked about DotA's community was just how seriously people took the game and how generous they were with their time. Almost anyone I messaged was willing to spend hours with me reviewing replays and critiquing my plays. Within a few months I began to have lots of conflict with other players though. I realized that my ideas were very different from others and I had major disagreements in a few areas. One of them was on the path to getting better. Even when I was getting coached by players who were very good, I realized that they had not always gotten good through incremental, deliberate learning. Rather they had brute forced a lot of things, and they had learnt many habits without even knowing how to explain or document them. So their best advice to me to improve was to just "play 10 games a day". But I thought that surely I would learn faster if I played 3 games a day, reviewed 3 replays a day, and spent 3-4 games' worth of time running drills or practice scenarios. They often agreed on this point in the abstract, vague sense, but then disagreed in practical terms when I showed them schedules or plans, instead insisting that playing more would help more than thinking or analyzing the game.

There was one particular coach and analyst who stood out as different though; his name was Cookie. He was known for having spectacular results when coaching people and his own climb was quite quick. He made lots of content and in it he recommended specific, actionable steps and drills, creating all sorts of complex practice methods and objective tests. Some people loved his stuff, but many people disliked it. They felt like he made it too difficult to play a game, and that a game shouldn't be his hard. The weird thing I felt at the time was that his methods made it way easier to learn and climb ranks, not harder. People thought that it would take them too much time to practice like this, but to me it seemed clear that it saved significant amounts of time compared to simply playing repeatedly.

That's when I realized that most people wanted to learn quickly while also playing mindlessly. They didn't want to analyze or think seriously, or spend time running drills or practice sessions. To them it didn't make sense to take a game so seriously, and yet many of them *did* take it seriously when they died or lost games.

One unexpected outcome of my DotA practice and learning was that I began to understand my own emotional and subconscious reactions to situations better. As I paid attention to my thoughts during games, I found myself consistently blaming others when doing poorly and taking credit when doing well, even when I had no objective reason to do so. I was surprised to find that this approach to learning the game also helped me spot different kinds of bias in myself and overcome them.

Hearthstone and DotA both also taught me about playing to win and maximizing odds. Rather than judging the quality of my decision based on the outcome, I needed to judge based on the odds of a good outcome, as well as based on what would happen if I simply continued normally or took no risks.

Another spot where I started to disagree with other players was in risk-taking. The more ahead I was in a game, the more I wanted to cut down on risks and take only safe fights and objectives. The more behind I was, the more I wanted to play aggressively and take risks, because I knew that if things continued normally, we would lose. I found that most other players followed their instincts and ended up reacting the opposite way; playing aggressively and cockily when ahead, opening themselves up to being punished by opponents, and playing too safely when behind, being afraid of dying or losing quickly.

There's a lot to learn from games and I think people underestimate just how much they can learn about their own minds and ideas simply by testing them in an environment that punishes mistakes almost immediately (especially against good players) and rewards good decision-making consistently.


Freeze at 4:42 PM on February 25, 2020 | #15621 | reply | quote

#15621 You can approach learning philosophy more methodically too. More organized, less just doing a bunch of philosophy and hoping you get good (equivalent to playing a bunch of games).

> yet many of them *did* take it seriously when they died or lost games.

Being tilted, upset or mad, or otherwise caring, (which I'm guessing is the observed behavior) is different than taking it intellectually seriously.

> Another spot where I started to disagree with other players was in risk-taking.

Yeah I agree with that paragraph, I've noticed that too. It comes up in lots of games.


curi at 4:56 PM on February 25, 2020 | #15622 | reply | quote

Agreed

#15622

> You can approach learning philosophy more methodically too. More organized, less just doing a bunch of philosophy and hoping you get good (equivalent to playing a bunch of games).

I think the problem is I'm approaching philosophy kind of like playing a bunch of games. For some reason learning DotA methodically seemed interesting, but learning philosophy chaotically seems more interesting than learning it methodically. Likely a flaw in my ideas.

>> yet many of them *did* take it seriously when they died or lost games.

> Being tilted, upset or mad, or otherwise caring, (which I'm guessing is the observed behavior) is different than taking it intellectually seriously.

I agree that people tilting are not actually taking things intellectually seriously. I was mistaken to conflate the two. It seems possible to care about something in a non intellectual, non-serious, kind of emotional way

where you care about the outcome, but aren't willing to analyze, practice, or objectively document or do anything to improve the outcome objectively.

Maybe that's kind of what love/romance is like in culture, where people want to do better, but don't want to learn PUA or even document what goes wrong in their relationships or look for patterns in their fights or issues with others.

> Yeah I agree with that paragraph, I've noticed that too. It comes up in lots of games.

I really think games have a lot of interesting things to teach people in different areas. I agree with DD that they are destined to be a great way of teaching and learning all sorts of things. I wonder what philosophy games might look like. I'd be interested in playing something like that.


Freeze at 6:23 PM on February 25, 2020 | #15623 | reply | quote

> Maybe that's kind of what love/romance is like in culture, where people want to do better, but don't want to learn PUA or even document what goes wrong in their relationships or look for patterns in their fights or issues with others.

When I try to talk with non-FI people about relationships it often goes about like this:

me: so lots of relationships fail. people breakup or divorce. people get hurt. people have expectations and desires, and predictions about the future, which don't work out. this is a common problem and major risk. right?

them: yeah.

me: so what are you doing about that so you don't become a victim?

them: communication and rationality.

me: that plan has already been tried and failed literally millions of times. what are you doing *differently* than what hasn't worked for many others?

them: [no answer]


curi at 6:38 PM on February 25, 2020 | #15624 | reply | quote

> Another spot where I started to disagree with other players was in risk-taking. The more ahead I was in a game, the more I wanted to cut down on risks and take only safe fights and objectives. The more behind I was, the more I wanted to play aggressively and take risks, because I knew that if things continued normally, we would lose. I found that most other players followed their instincts and ended up reacting the opposite way; playing aggressively and cockily when ahead, opening themselves up to being punished by opponents, and playing too safely when behind, being afraid of dying or losing quickly.

If most people have these instincts then the instinct for how to play from behind is not necessarily wrong.

Playing carefully and defensively can put you in a good position to capitalize when the other team gets cocky and pushes too hard. If they overcommit to an tower push and you wipe their team that could turn the game around.

I can’t think of a similar good reason for taking more risks when ahead, though. I think that’s mostly hubris, or something like that.


Anonymous at 12:58 PM on February 26, 2020 | #15640 | reply | quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyfsbQQYSIs

this video is about how 2 teams in LoL wanted to lose to each other so they would get in the losers bracket because the winner would have to fight a really good team they would probably lose to, but if they tried to throw to obviously they would get penalized.

it seems like terrible design that a team could want to lose.


Anonymous at 11:49 PM on February 26, 2020 | #15652 | reply | quote

Baldur's Gate 3 – First gameplay info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYSqQuqCAZI


curi at 3:45 PM on February 27, 2020 | #15657 | reply | quote

#15657 I loved and grew up playing the first two Baldur's Gate games. Didn't know a Baldur's Gate III (BG3) was in the making.

I am not a big gamer anymore (if I ever was). Last console I bought was Xbox 360 15 years or so ago. Before that I played on PC.

As far as I can tell BG3 will come out on PC and Google Stadia. Since I have a Mac Google Stadia would have to be my option if I want to play it ASAP.

I had never heard of Stadia before so I did some reading on it and checked some video clips to get a feeling of what it is (less than 1h in total).

What I found about Stadia did not make me want to get it.

Stadia criticism:

*The Stadia Disaster*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDxnVvyUK3E

*Google Stadia - Before You Buy*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzEIu368ht4

*Google Stadia is Increasingly Garbage - Backwards Innovation*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzEEKQHLiTo

*Google Stadia is Already Dead, It Just Doesn't Know Yet*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuFxGS-hKAA

Criticism Stadia TL;DR:

- Chromecast Ultra overheating

- Pricing

- Many lies by Stadia (i.e. latency & resolution)

- Lagging

- 4K not working

- Lose all your games if Stadia shuts down (many Google projects have been shut down)

Has anyone reading this tried out Stadia and want to give their opinion?

My only reason to get it would be to play BG3.

How long does it usually take for games like this to reach other platforms? A month? A year?

Since many here are Mac users - what do you recommend for Mac users to play games such as BG3? I do not have to have BG3 as soon as possible.

As for now I am not too keen on Stadia based on the linked criticism (refutations appreciated).


N at 12:57 AM on February 28, 2020 | #15661 | reply | quote

You can use Boot Camp to install windows on your Mac.


Anonymous at 1:33 AM on February 28, 2020 | #15662 | reply | quote

#15662 Boot Camp is one way. Steam is another way that I forgot about.

It looks like BG3 will be released on Steam at some point:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1086940/Baldurs_Gate_3/

I'd rather run Steam on my Mac than install WinOS on it.


N at 2:13 AM on February 28, 2020 | #15663 | reply | quote

#15663

in the BG3 steam page the system requirements are:

"System Requirements

Minimum:

Requires a 64-bit processor and operating system"

it doesnt mention which operating systems.


Anonymous at 3:45 PM on February 28, 2020 | #15677 | reply | quote

#15677 True. I reckon that is some sort of "default" text as no OS has been given. That did however get me to look more closely at some requirements on Steam.

At first I thought that as long as one installs Steam one could play all games, but that was not true. For some games one still needs e.g. WinOS ( https://store.steampowered.com/app/109600/Neverwinter/ ).

Looking closer at the other BG games available on Steam they all are available on Mac. So I hope BG3 to be that as well.

Other BG games available on Steam:

https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/379/Baldurs_Gate_The_Complete_Saga/


Anonymous at 11:17 PM on February 28, 2020 | #15683 | reply | quote

> Looking closer at the other BG games available on Steam they all are available on Mac. So I hope BG3 to be that as well.

relevant article that curi wrote about his experience trying to play a BG game on steam http://curi.us/1883-beamdog-fraud#15694

> To summarize:

> The Mac App Store version is unsupported indefinitely. No refunds. Fuck you. Beamdog blames Apple but they can't seem to get things to work on other platforms either:

> The Steam version for Mac doesn't run on a fresh install.

> The Beamdog version, from their website with their own installer ... also don't run on a fresh install.


Anonymous at 7:59 PM on February 29, 2020 | #15695 | reply | quote

#15695 Steam Mac BGEE works currently and I read the Mac App Store version was updated.


curi at 8:03 PM on February 29, 2020 | #15696 | reply | quote

#15695 & #15695

Thx for info.

As far as I can tell BG3 on Steam will not be published by Beamdog, like the other BG games on Steam, but by Larian Studios.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1086940/Baldurs_Gate_3/


N at 11:19 PM on February 29, 2020 | #15697 | reply | quote

Content Creator Explains Equity in Card Games

https://youtu.be/Lvhoec2FdRA

Swim here explains how to think while playing this card game. One of the first things he explains is equity, a poker concept about keeping in mind your win percentage at any given time. He also explains how when you're behind on equity, you want to take more risks, and when you're ahead, you want to take more guaranteed plays. Related to the stuff from comment #15621


Freeze at 7:14 AM on March 2, 2020 | #15706 | reply | quote

Riot Games

What do you all think of Riot's recent strategy of aggressively developing games in all sorts of genres? they've quickly expanded into card auto battlers, card games, and are now developing a shooter: https://playvalorant.com/en-us/


Freeze at 9:57 AM on March 2, 2020 | #15708 | reply | quote

Correction to above

card auto battlers should be just auto battlers


Freeze at 9:58 AM on March 2, 2020 | #15709 | reply | quote

D&D games

#15657 re-sparked my interest in one of my favourite games growing up, Baldur's Gate, as they are coming out with a new game soon, Baldur's Gate 3 (BG3).

I was looking for a way to play the game on Mac. I have a MacBook Pro mid 2015.

After some searching and asking here for me the most appealing choice is Steam.

BG3 will be released by Larian Studios (LS). I looked at some games that LS had made previously and they did have another promising D&D game playable via Steam: Divinity 2.

I bought the game on Steam even though my Mac doesn't have the best specs for playing it (it does have playable specs). I did look into some virtual machine kind of ways to help with the gaming experience. I found GeForce Now after some web searching (premium version is free for 3 months).

The game is running much more smoothly when I run it through GeForce Now. I did have to buy a CAT 6 ethernet cable (wifi is not good even though I have 100Mbits fiber).

There are some connectivity issues every now and then, but for an adventure style D&D (turn based combat) game it works fine.

I like Divinity 2 thus far (played about 20h). I think that LS did a good job with this D&D game and I look forward to BG3.


N at 4:46 AM on March 6, 2020 | #15768 | reply | quote

Ocarina of Time continues to get more broken. Example of a new route:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/564770542


curi at 11:10 PM on March 9, 2020 | #15826 | reply | quote

dogman, an Overwatch League pro, has been doing reviews of league games on stream. e.g:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/564716222


curi at 11:12 PM on March 9, 2020 | #15827 | reply | quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDOc2w9exEM

Cheese commentating his new Mario 64 120 star world record, performed live at the Break The Record event in Europe.

He says he was super tired, not sleeping enough (3 hours a night), mentions stomach flu ... he had kinda given up, couldn't focus well, and was just doing runs for a couple more hours to pass the time until he could go to bed. And then he got the world record.

It goes to show how much speedrunners learn autopilot habits, so it's still possible for them to play very well with low conscious attention.


curi at 10:44 PM on March 10, 2020 | #15843 | reply | quote

#15843 heh I paused the video to write this comment and take a break from watching it. I go back and Cheese literally starts talking about "autopilot" immediately after the stuff about being tired that I commented on.

He starts talking about autopilot at 23:45 and being tired before that.


curi at 11:22 PM on March 10, 2020 | #15844 | reply | quote

#15843 i wonder if paying less attention to a speedrun could help him do it if he normally gets kind of stressed out in the run when he is on WR pace, if hes not thinking about it as much then maybe he wont get as stressed about it.


internetrules at 2:27 PM on March 11, 2020 | #15859 | reply | quote

#15859 yes he talks about managing stress and mindset being really important for high level speedrunners because they are already good at the game, they can do everything, they've practiced it a lot, they just need to avoid screwing up. tilt and bad mindsets are a big source of screwups. in his world record, he says he made some mistakes that he might have reset over if he was in a different mood. he thinks people reset too much or start playing bad because they get too frustrated or have other negative thoughts or feelings.

i think mindset is partly such a big deal because they're bad at it. like there are a lot of people who are above average regarding mindset (so they're bad) and way way way above average regarding doing all the speedrun movements, tricks, etc (so they're good). so for those people, a lot of their problems are mindset related.

in a world with more people good at mindset, you can imagine more people who don't have many mindset problems but have more trouble with other stuff: the mechanics, buttons, timings, memory, etc. but in our culture today, a lot more people can deal with the strategies and buttons than mindset stuff.


curi at 2:42 PM on March 11, 2020 | #15860 | reply | quote

https://www.youtube.com/user/samfdigital/videos

Enjoying this channel I just found with histories of various gamers, especially streamers.


curi at 11:50 PM on April 3, 2020 | #16255 | reply | quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7KZ_l-3uEE

I like Asmongold commentary on other videos. You get extra bonus stuff compared to just watching the original vid. + his chat reactions + he finds some pretty good stuff to watch.


curi at 2:51 PM on April 6, 2020 | #16292 | reply | quote

(This is an unmoderated discussion forum. Discussion info.)